Zeta Gundam box set--no theme songs?

[Kuno Christoffel]

I'm not the world's foremost Gundam expert, but I do at least know that Zeta
Gundam had regular anime theme songs. The new box set, however, just has
orchestral music with sound effects during the opening credits. So what gives?

Did all the hardcore Gundam fans already know about this? Was there some
legitimate copyright issue with using the original theme songs? Or did some
asshole at Bandai Entertainment just decide that the coveted casual viewers
(who for some reason have purchased a $200 box set of a 20-year-old cult anime
for their casual viewing) were going to be turned off by Japanese singing?

- K.C.

[Rodrick Su]

Post by Kuno Christoffel
I'm not the world's foremost Gundam expert, but I do at least know
that Zeta Gundam had regular anime theme songs. The new box set,
however, just has orchestral music with sound effects during the
opening credits. So what gives?

For unknown, Bandai Entertainment (USA) could not secure rights to the
songs from Sunrise Inc. They cannot use them.

Post by Kuno Christoffel
Did all the hardcore Gundam fans already know about this? Was there
some legitimate copyright issue with using the original theme songs?
Or did some asshole at Bandai Entertainment just decide that the
coveted casual viewers (who for some reason have purchased a $200 box
set of a 20-year-old cult anime for their casual viewing) were going
to be turned off by Japanese singing?

See my previous answer.

[Sea Wasp]

Post by Rodrick Su

Post by Kuno Christoffel
I'm not the world's foremost Gundam expert, but I do at least know
that Zeta Gundam had regular anime theme songs. The new box set,
however, just has orchestral music with sound effects during the
opening credits. So what gives?

For unknown, Bandai Entertainment (USA) could not secure rights to the
songs from Sunrise Inc. They cannot use them.

That's not unique, though very annoying. Ah well, I can just rip them
from the original LDs and make proper OP DVDs.

[DrWho2002]

Post by Sea Wasp

Post by Rodrick Su

Post by Kuno Christoffel
I'm not the world's foremost Gundam expert, but I do at least know
that Zeta Gundam had regular anime theme songs. The new box set,
however, just has orchestral music with sound effects during the
opening credits. So what gives?

For unknown, Bandai Entertainment (USA) could not secure rights to
the songs from Sunrise Inc. They cannot use them.

That's not unique, though very annoying. Ah well, I can just rip them
from the original LDs and make proper OP DVDs.

There's a big brouhaha at animeondvd's forums, because apparently people
preordered the set and bandai didn't say anything about the missing songs
until AFTER they shipped.

[Jordan L Derber]

Post by DrWho2002
There's a big brouhaha at animeondvd's forums, because apparently people
preordered the set and bandai didn't say anything about the missing songs
until AFTER they shipped.

Like a couple other Gundam releases, it's also dubtitled (from an ealier
draft of the dub scripts, apparently, which makes it worse than a true
dubtitle since the actual dub is closer to the Japanese dialogue in some
pounts). See the thread from Chris' review of the first volume.

[Dan]

Post by Rodrick Su

Post by Kuno Christoffel
I'm not the world's foremost Gundam expert, but I do at least know
that Zeta Gundam had regular anime theme songs. The new box set,
however, just has orchestral music with sound effects during the
opening credits. So what gives?

For unknown, Bandai Entertainment (USA) could not secure rights to the
songs from Sunrise Inc. They cannot use them.

Probably they're too cheap to pay the amount Sunrise wanted.:) This kinda
suck since I was planning to get a set too....well eventually since just
can't see myself shell out that much right away.

[Neil Nadelman]

Post by Rodrick Su

Post by Kuno Christoffel
I'm not the world's foremost Gundam expert, but I do at least know
that Zeta Gundam had regular anime theme songs. The new box set,
however, just has orchestral music with sound effects during the
opening credits. So what gives?

For unknown, Bandai Entertainment (USA) could not secure rights to the
songs from Sunrise Inc. They cannot use them.

Is it really unknown? I thought Neil Sedaka wanted more money
than Sunrise were willing to pay for the foreign rights to the theme
songs. At least, that seems like the most logical reason to me.

-----------------------------------------------------
Neil Nadelman ***@navzr-genafyngbe.pbz (ROT13)
-----------------------------------------------------
I have no fears in life,
for I have already survived Theta-G!

[Jorge R. Frank]

Post by Kuno Christoffel
I'm not the world's foremost Gundam expert, but I do at least know
that Zeta Gundam had regular anime theme songs. The new box set,
however, just has orchestral music with sound effects during the
opening credits. So what gives?
Did all the hardcore Gundam fans already know about this? Was there
some legitimate copyright issue with using the original theme songs?

It's disappointing but not unexpected. Often the rights to the songs are
shared between the anime studio, the record company, and the distributor.
That can make negotiations quite involved - and expensive. Bandai (probably
correctly) figured that few would pay an additional premium just to get the
songs, especially given that the true hardcore fans already own the
soundtracks.

My main disappointment is that this decision will keep Neil Sedaka's best
work since "Calendar Girl" and "Breakin' Up is Hard to Do" from a larger
audience. :-) (One of my favorite anime trivia questions, since even those
who are familiar with both Sedaka and the Z Gundam themes can't believe he
wrote them until I freeze-frame the credits and show them...)

Oh well, I'm sure someone will post rips of the OP-ED animation from the R2
DVDs. If not, I could cap them off my LD box set... once I figure out how
to use the conversion software.

[Steve Harrison]

Post by Jorge R. Frank

Post by Kuno Christoffel
I'm not the world's foremost Gundam expert, but I do at least know
that Zeta Gundam had regular anime theme songs. The new box set,
however, just has orchestral music with sound effects during the
opening credits. So what gives?
Did all the hardcore Gundam fans already know about this? Was there
some legitimate copyright issue with using the original theme songs?

It's disappointing but not unexpected. Often the rights to the songs are
shared between the anime studio, the record company, and the distributor.
That can make negotiations quite involved - and expensive. Bandai (probably
correctly) figured that few would pay an additional premium just to get the
songs, especially given that the true hardcore fans already own the
soundtracks.
My main disappointment is that this decision will keep Neil Sedaka's best
work since "Calendar Girl" and "Breakin' Up is Hard to Do" from a larger
audience. :-) (One of my favorite anime trivia questions, since even those
who are familiar with both Sedaka and the Z Gundam themes can't believe he
wrote them until I freeze-frame the credits and show them...)
Oh well, I'm sure someone will post rips of the OP-ED animation from the R2
DVDs. If not, I could cap them off my LD box set... once I figure out how
to use the conversion software.

But....this is all nonsense....I can't figure out how come people keep
forgetting that
Bandai *is* Sunrise...There's no rights issue to really have a problem
over, not the same as if ADV or someone had licensed the show.....

And I've not heard any confirmation or denial of two rumors:

1. One of the songs, the vocals, is playing during the menu.

2. There is no mid-series OP song change at Eps. 26, nor is the animation
changed- it's all the same from episode 1 to episode 50. If *this* is true
then the answer if obvious: This is the OP credit Bandai generated for the
failed leveraging of getting the show on Cartoon Network.

I am saddened by all this nonsense that Bandai (both sides of the ocean)
has done to what is probably the single best Gundam series, the one that
really *could* have kick-started what Bandai's been trying to do for years
now...I mean, guys, they've been screwing around with this since *1999*
for gosh sake!

Arrggh. Thank god for my off-air tapes from Japan 1985....

[Kuno Christoffel]

Post by Steve Harrison
1. One of the songs, the vocals, is playing during the menu.

*A* song plays during the menu. Female vocalist, starts out "boku o
mitsumeteta, aoi hitomi..." It's not either of the missing opening themes
or the ending, so I don't know what it's supposed to be. I guess an insert
song from later in the show.

Post by Steve Harrison
2. There is no mid-series OP song change at Eps. 26, nor is the animation
changed- it's all the same from episode 1 to episode 50.

No, they use the full versions of both opening sequences, but with the same
orchestral music playing in both of them.

- K.C.

[Neo-Era]

Post by Kuno Christoffel

Post by Steve Harrison
1. One of the songs, the vocals, is playing during the menu.

*A* song plays during the menu. Female vocalist, starts out

"boku o

Post by Kuno Christoffel
mitsumeteta, aoi hitomi..." It's not either of the missing

opening

Post by Kuno Christoffel
themes or the ending, so I don't know what it's supposed to be.

I

Post by Kuno Christoffel
guess an insert song from later in the show.

Correct. "Giniro Dress", an insert song which wasn't composed by
Neil Sedaka.

[Jorge R. Frank]

Post by Kuno Christoffel

Post by Steve Harrison
1. One of the songs, the vocals, is playing during the menu.

*A* song plays during the menu. Female vocalist, starts out "boku o
mitsumeteta, aoi hitomi..." It's not either of the missing opening
themes or the ending, so I don't know what it's supposed to be. I
guess an insert song from later in the show.

That would be "Giniro no Doresu" (Silver Dress). In the original Japanese
version, it was played exactly once: at the end of ep. 20, when Camille
rocketed back into space on the Gundam Mk II using a booster from the
Sudori carrier, provided by Four Murasume.

I haven't received my DVDbox set yet; did they leave that song in the
episode?

[Kuno Christoffel]

Post by Jorge R. Frank

Post by Kuno Christoffel
*A* song plays during the menu. Female vocalist, starts out "boku o
mitsumeteta, aoi hitomi..." It's not either of the missing opening
themes or the ending, so I don't know what it's supposed to be. I
guess an insert song from later in the show.

That would be "Giniro no Doresu" (Silver Dress). In the original Japanese
version, it was played exactly once: at the end of ep. 20, when Camille
rocketed back into space on the Gundam Mk II using a booster from the
Sudori carrier, provided by Four Murasume.
I haven't received my DVDbox set yet; did they leave that song in the
episode?

I looked ahead and checked, and yes they do.

I wish I *hadn't* looked ahead and watched the end of that episode, but
too late for that now...

- K.C.

[Jorge R. Frank]

Post by Kuno Christoffel
I wish I *hadn't* looked ahead and watched the end of that episode,
but too late for that now...

Oops! Sorry - I *really* should have put a spoiler warning on that!

[Steve Harrison]

Post by Jorge R. Frank

Post by Kuno Christoffel

Post by Steve Harrison
1. One of the songs, the vocals, is playing during the menu.

*A* song plays during the menu. Female vocalist, starts out "boku o
mitsumeteta, aoi hitomi..." It's not either of the missing opening
themes or the ending, so I don't know what it's supposed to be. I
guess an insert song from later in the show.

That would be "Giniro no Doresu" (Silver Dress). In the original Japanese
version, it was played exactly once: at the end of ep. 20, when Camille
rocketed back into space on the Gundam Mk II using a booster from the
Sudori carrier, provided by Four Murasume.
I haven't received my DVDbox set yet; did they leave that song in the
episode?

As reported later in this thread, yes they did.

Wasn't there another song playing in the background in...ummmm...oh, crud,
I can't remember, it was a scene when Camille and Rosamia were walking
around...I think it was on a colony...it was one of the quiet character
moments between the fighting and politics....anyway...

I always thought Giniro no Dress was meant to be the second ED theme but
for some reason they kept the first one thru the whole show....gotta love
the 'follow the bouncing Haro' animation...

So, they paid (supposedly, ya know, the sticking point) for one song in
the show, but not the OP or ED themes...

"Well...well...they were forced to...yeah, that's it...the song was so
*totally* intergrated into the BGM track that they'd NEVER have been able
to strip it out and replace it with a karaoke track or other
music...yeah...would have thrown the synch totally out of
tracking...yeah..that's it...that's the ticket..."

Ya know, it probably just doesn't matter. It's done, Bandai screwed up
again, they'll never learn.

[Jorge R. Frank]

Post by Steve Harrison
Wasn't there another song playing in the background in...ummmm...oh,
crud, I can't remember, it was a scene when Camille and Rosamia were
walking around...I think it was on a colony...it was one of the quiet
character moments between the fighting and politics....anyway...

May well have been... it's been a long time since I watched that range of
episodes (39-42, IIRC).

Post by Steve Harrison
I always thought Giniro no Dress was meant to be the second ED theme
but for some reason they kept the first one thru the whole
show....gotta love the 'follow the bouncing Haro' animation...

That was my suspicion as well. The timing is just too convenient (they
played it three episodes before they changed the OP). I wish they had;
Hoshizora no Believe was my least favorite of the Z Gundam OP-ED songs
(despite the hypnotic bouncing Haro, as you point out...)

Post by Steve Harrison
Ya know, it probably just doesn't matter. It's done, Bandai screwed up
again, they'll never learn.

<shrug> In the big scheme of things, it's a minor goof. It's not a deal-
breaker for most fans in terms of buying the set or not (I didn't know
until after I pre-ordered, but I would have ordered it even had I known).
This goof is the same order-of-magnitude as Viz's decision to delete the
Gilbert O'Sullivan OP-ED songs from Maison Ikkoku. I definitely wouldn't
put it in the same league as the decision to release the Original Gundam
DVDs dub-only, which *was* a deal-breaker for me - I'm holding out for the
dual-language "special edition", which I expect Bandai to announce around
the time the original series is released in R2 in Japan.

[Jorge R. Frank]

Post by Steve Harrison

Post by Jorge R. Frank

Post by Kuno Christoffel
I'm not the world's foremost Gundam expert, but I do at least know
that Zeta Gundam had regular anime theme songs. The new box set,
however, just has orchestral music with sound effects during the
opening credits. So what gives?
Did all the hardcore Gundam fans already know about this? Was
there some legitimate copyright issue with using the original theme
songs?

It's disappointing but not unexpected. Often the rights to the songs
are shared between the anime studio, the record company, and the
distributor. That can make negotiations quite involved - and
expensive. Bandai (probably correctly) figured that few would pay an
additional premium just to get the songs, especially given that the
true hardcore fans already own the soundtracks.
My main disappointment is that this decision will keep Neil Sedaka's
best work since "Calendar Girl" and "Breakin' Up is Hard to Do" from
a larger audience. :-) (One of my favorite anime trivia questions,
since even those who are familiar with both Sedaka and the Z Gundam
themes can't believe he wrote them until I freeze-frame the credits
and show them...)
Oh well, I'm sure someone will post rips of the OP-ED animation from
the R2 DVDs. If not, I could cap them off my LD box set... once I
figure out how to use the conversion software.

But....this is all nonsense....I can't figure out how come people keep
forgetting that
Bandai *is* Sunrise...There's no rights issue to really have a problem
over...

Well, duh! But is Sunrise the same as Shotsu Agency, and what is the
relationship between Shotsu Agency and whoever owns the rights to the
*music*. Enquiring minds gots ta know!

[Stainless Steel Rat]

* ***@my.com (Steve Harrison) on Sat, 18 Dec 2004
| But....this is all nonsense....I can't figure out how come people keep
| forgetting that
| Bandai *is* Sunrise...There's no rights issue to really have a problem
| over, not the same as if ADV or someone had licensed the show.....

But it is not Bandai or Sunrise that has the theme music rights. It is
King Records if I recall correctly.

[Steve Harrison]

Post by Stainless Steel Rat
| But....this is all nonsense....I can't figure out how come people keep
| forgetting that
| Bandai *is* Sunrise...There's no rights issue to really have a problem
| over, not the same as if ADV or someone had licensed the show.....
But it is not Bandai or Sunrise that has the theme music rights. It is
King Records if I recall correctly.

That is correct...King/Starchild has been partnered for years with
Sunrise, just as Toei has its deals with Nippon Columbia...errr, Columbia
Music Entertainment Inc.

What I was trying to say in my inept way was, the handling of licensing of
the music (which is *also* held by King- BGM as well as song) for Bandai
would not be as difficult as it might be for ADV or CPM or someone
else...there's a pre-existing relationship, there's the fact that all the
contracts were doubtlessly dealt with when Zeta came out on DVD in Japan
(and, frankly, probably back when it came out on LD), etc.

And it can't be an issue with Sedaka not allowing it, because he wrote the
score for the song, *which is still used*, and which would have to have
been licensed...

arrggh. I hate this whole gameplaying the companies do...good thing Bandai
has so few titles I want to pick up, makes it easier to just ignore them
and wait for them to close down their US branch and foist their remaining
releases back on Pioneer...errr..Geneon. They could own it all, Bandai
could, but they keep pissing it all away...properly directed they could
make ADV call them daddy....idiots. stupid, stupid idiots.

[Neo-Era]

Post by Steve Harrison
And it can't be an issue with Sedaka not allowing it, because he
the score for the song, *which is still used*, and which would

have to

Post by Steve Harrison
have been licensed...

I'm not following you here. The score for which song is still used?
All the songs Sedaka composed (the OP's and ED) are gone but the
one vocal song he didn't compose (the insert song) is still
present. Seems easy enough to deduce the licensing problems had
something to do with him.

[Steve Harrison]

Post by Steve Harrison

Post by Steve Harrison
And it can't be an issue with Sedaka not allowing it, because he
the score for the song, *which is still used*, and which would

have to

Post by Steve Harrison
have been licensed...

I'm not following you here. The score for which song is still used?
All the songs Sedaka composed (the OP's and ED) are gone but the
one vocal song he didn't compose (the insert song) is still
present. Seems easy enough to deduce the licensing problems had
something to do with him.

Maybe I mis-understood....isn't the instrumental version of the OP and ED
songs what's used in place of the songs at the OP and ED credits? Did I
mis-read the credits those long, long years ago that Sedaka wrote the
score for Z-Toki o Koete, Hoshizora no Believe, and Mizu no Hoshi e Ai o
Komete (the second OP theme) , and someone else wrote the lyrics?

Because if the problem is Sedaka's licensing agent wanted tp prevent the
work from being played in the US (unless tons of money changed hands),
they wouldn't be able to use the instrumental version either.

Because I note, looking at my old Gundam Singles Collection LP, there's a
Japanese name that's co-credited with the score for the songs (and another
for lyrics, of course), but Sedaka gets solo credit for the instrumental
version of Mizu no Hoshi.

Did I clear that up?

[Neo-Era]

209.112.128.246>,

Post by Steve Harrison

Post by Steve Harrison

Post by Steve Harrison
And it can't be an issue with Sedaka not allowing it, because he
the score for the song, *which is still used*, and which would

have to

Post by Steve Harrison
have been licensed...

I'm not following you here. The score for which song is still

used?

Post by Steve Harrison

Post by Steve Harrison
All the songs Sedaka composed (the OP's and ED) are gone but the
one vocal song he didn't compose (the insert song) is still
present. Seems easy enough to deduce the licensing problems had
something to do with him.

Maybe I mis-understood....isn't the instrumental version of the

OP and

Post by Steve Harrison
ED songs what's used in place of the songs at the OP and ED

credits?


Nope. It's completely different BGM from the show used with the
opening & ending animation, not instrumental versions of the
missing theme songs.

Post by Steve Harrison
Did I mis-read the credits those long, long years ago that Sedaka
wrote the score for Z-Toki o Koete, Hoshizora no Believe, and

Mizu no

Post by Steve Harrison
Hoshi e Ai o Komete (the second OP theme) , and someone else

wrote the

Post by Steve Harrison
lyrics?

Ya, Sedaka composed those 3, someone else is credited for arranging
them, and yet another person is credited for lyrics. Yoshiyuki
Tomino himself wrote the lyrics for Z Toki O Koete under his Rin
Iogi pseudonym.

[Neil Nadelman]

Post by Steve Harrison
Maybe I mis-understood....isn't the instrumental version of the OP and ED
songs what's used in place of the songs at the OP and ED credits?

No, they've been replaced by music from elsewhere in the BGM
and sound effects. All the Sedaka music has been removed.
Personally, I just wish that Sunrise had just paid another artist to
compose another few songs for use as the OP and ED. Just using
existing source music seems a bit too cheap.

-----------------------------------------------------
Neil Nadelman ***@navzr-genafyngbe.pbz (ROT13)
-----------------------------------------------------
I have no fears in life,
for I have already survived Theta-G!

[Invid Fan]

Post by Neil Nadelman

Post by Steve Harrison
Maybe I mis-understood....isn't the instrumental version of the OP and ED
songs what's used in place of the songs at the OP and ED credits?

No, they've been replaced by music from elsewhere in the BGM
and sound effects. All the Sedaka music has been removed.
Personally, I just wish that Sunrise had just paid another artist to
compose another few songs for use as the OP and ED. Just using
existing source music seems a bit too cheap.

Are the original songs avalible anywhere online?

[Steve Harrison]

Post by Neil Nadelman

Post by Steve Harrison
Maybe I mis-understood....isn't the instrumental version of the OP and ED
songs what's used in place of the songs at the OP and ED credits?

No, they've been replaced by music from elsewhere in the BGM
and sound effects. All the Sedaka music has been removed.
Personally, I just wish that Sunrise had just paid another artist to
compose another few songs for use as the OP and ED. Just using
existing source music seems a bit too cheap.

Stunningly so...thanks for *finally* clearing that up for me...all the
other comments to date had been fuzzy..and as to sound FX, I'm hearing
reports they've been altered and/or 'sweetened' in a Macek-like
fashion....

So, the other shoe, so to speak....does this mean that the slow
instrumental version of Mizu no Hoshi that plays during the final scenes
of Episode 50 is gone too?

screw that noise....that's just....aarrgg.

[Neo-Era]

Post by Steve Harrison
So, the other shoe, so to speak....does this mean that the slow
instrumental version of Mizu no Hoshi that plays during the final
scenes of Episode 50 is gone too?
screw that noise....that's just....aarrgg.

I haven't gotten that far but I've been told its still there. My
guess is that it's considered a composition by Zeta's background
score composer (albeit a variation based on a Sedaka song) so there
were no legal entanglements there.

[Steve Harrison]

Post by Neo-Era

Post by Steve Harrison
So, the other shoe, so to speak....does this mean that the slow
instrumental version of Mizu no Hoshi that plays during the final
scenes of Episode 50 is gone too?
screw that noise....that's just....aarrgg.

I haven't gotten that far but I've been told its still there. My
guess is that it's considered a composition by Zeta's background
score composer (albeit a variation based on a Sedaka song) so there
were no legal entanglements there.

Well, then, I think we have them.....because that's not the case.

Even if it's a variation on a theme, you still have to pay the owner. How
do I know? Thank Star Trek!

Music publishing is one of those strange mysterious areas that have arcane
rules...I remember reading years ago a set of lyrics that Gene Roddenberry
wrote to go along with Alexander Courage's title theme, and wondering why
the hell that was done...they weren't really very singable, and the theme
itself doesn't lend itself to being sung to...hummable, sure, but not
singing...

Years later, mystery solved. By having lyrics written, and submitted to
ASCAP with the score, Roddenberry secured an extra bit of personal income-
all royalities for the Theme from Star Trek are split between Roddenberry
and Courage. Every Single Use, Forever. (say it like Shatner. C'mon, you
know you want to ;) ) (assuming that the proper licensing fees are paid,
naturally, not just noodling on a Casio Keyboard in your basement).

And as I understand it, Courage was quite miffed to have to split the
royalities and saw this as underhanded and nasty...but I digress.

My point being, just jazzing up Sedaka's song into a more symphonic
arrangment would *still* require paying fees...and I don't think it would
be a seperate issue..heck, it would take *more* work to break it down,
*more* paper and lawyers, which equal money..."OK, so it's $50k for the
songs, but you just wanna keep these instrumental bits, that's $10k"

And my trump card...if they kept that bit, they could have probably gotten
the Karaoke to the songs for not much more...and *still* had a 'usable on
US TV' OP and ED credit.

Stunning detective work or chasing my own tail? you be the judge! :)

[Invid Fan]

In article

Post by Steve Harrison

Post by Neo-Era
I haven't gotten that far but I've been told its still there. My
guess is that it's considered a composition by Zeta's background
score composer (albeit a variation based on a Sedaka song) so there
were no legal entanglements there.

Well, then, I think we have them.....because that's not the case.
Even if it's a variation on a theme, you still have to pay the owner. How
do I know? Thank Star Trek!
Music publishing is one of those strange mysterious areas that have arcane
rules...I remember reading years ago a set of lyrics that Gene Roddenberry
wrote to go along with Alexander Courage's title theme, and wondering why
the hell that was done...they weren't really very singable, and the theme
itself doesn't lend itself to being sung to...hummable, sure, but not
singing...
Years later, mystery solved. By having lyrics written, and submitted to
ASCAP with the score, Roddenberry secured an extra bit of personal income-
all royalities for the Theme from Star Trek are split between Roddenberry
and Courage. Every Single Use, Forever. (say it like Shatner. C'mon, you
know you want to ;) ) (assuming that the proper licensing fees are paid,
naturally, not just noodling on a Casio Keyboard in your basement).
And as I understand it, Courage was quite miffed to have to split the
royalities and saw this as underhanded and nasty...but I digress.
My point being, just jazzing up Sedaka's song into a more symphonic
arrangment would *still* require paying fees...and I don't think it would
be a seperate issue..heck, it would take *more* work to break it down,
*more* paper and lawyers, which equal money..."OK, so it's $50k for the
songs, but you just wanna keep these instrumental bits, that's $10k"
And my trump card...if they kept that bit, they could have probably gotten
the Karaoke to the songs for not much more...and *still* had a 'usable on
US TV' OP and ED credit.
Stunning detective work or chasing my own tail? you be the judge! :)

You're forgetting one important detail: you're dealing with the
Japanese, not the ASCAP. On the one hand I'm sure the studio would have
loved to consider the song 'work for hire', and own all rights. On the
other, Sedaka would want to own all rights to it and anything based on
it. Negotiactions probably resulted in Sedaka signing away the use of
the song (or variations) within the body of the show for all the other
rights. After all, Bandai wouldn't want Sedaka to have veto power over
the entire series (opening credits can be changed easily, BGM can be a
bitch to replace)

[Steve Harrison]

Post by Invid Fan
In article

Post by Steve Harrison

Post by Neo-Era
I haven't gotten that far but I've been told its still there. My
guess is that it's considered a composition by Zeta's background
score composer (albeit a variation based on a Sedaka song) so there
were no legal entanglements there.

Well, then, I think we have them.....because that's not the case.
Even if it's a variation on a theme, you still have to pay the owner. How
do I know? Thank Star Trek!
Music publishing is one of those strange mysterious areas that have arcane
rules...I remember reading years ago a set of lyrics that Gene Roddenberry
wrote to go along with Alexander Courage's title theme, and wondering why
the hell that was done...they weren't really very singable, and the theme
itself doesn't lend itself to being sung to...hummable, sure, but not
singing...
Years later, mystery solved. By having lyrics written, and submitted to
ASCAP with the score, Roddenberry secured an extra bit of personal income-
all royalities for the Theme from Star Trek are split between Roddenberry
and Courage. Every Single Use, Forever. (say it like Shatner. C'mon, you
know you want to ;) ) (assuming that the proper licensing fees are paid,
naturally, not just noodling on a Casio Keyboard in your basement).
And as I understand it, Courage was quite miffed to have to split the
royalities and saw this as underhanded and nasty...but I digress.
My point being, just jazzing up Sedaka's song into a more symphonic
arrangment would *still* require paying fees...and I don't think it would
be a seperate issue..heck, it would take *more* work to break it down,
*more* paper and lawyers, which equal money..."OK, so it's $50k for the
songs, but you just wanna keep these instrumental bits, that's $10k"
And my trump card...if they kept that bit, they could have probably gotten
the Karaoke to the songs for not much more...and *still* had a 'usable on
US TV' OP and ED credit.
Stunning detective work or chasing my own tail? you be the judge! :)

You're forgetting one important detail: you're dealing with the
Japanese, not the ASCAP. On the one hand I'm sure the studio would have
loved to consider the song 'work for hire', and own all rights. On the
other, Sedaka would want to own all rights to it and anything based on
it. Negotiactions probably resulted in Sedaka signing away the use of
the song (or variations) within the body of the show for all the other
rights. After all, Bandai wouldn't want Sedaka to have veto power over
the entire series (opening credits can be changed easily, BGM can be a
bitch to replace)

But as I understand it, JASRAC is patterned pretty close on ASCAP... OTOH,
I'm sure there's that Japanese 'twist' to things....so...hm...

I'm just putting it out there, naa mean? :)

Answer me a question, because I am ignorant here...what did Bandai Visual
(US) do with the OP and ED songs for their dub only Mobile Suit Gundam?
Was there anything different between the CN airing and the DVDs?

Because my baseline assumption is the Zeta Gundam release is just
following in the footsteps....right? wrong?

[Neo-Era]

Post by Steve Harrison
Answer me a question, because I am ignorant here...what did

Bandai

Post by Steve Harrison
Visual (US) do with the OP and ED songs for their dub only Mobile

Suit

Post by Steve Harrison
Gundam? Was there anything different between the CN airing and

the

Post by Steve Harrison
DVDs?
Because my baseline assumption is the Zeta Gundam release is just
following in the footsteps....right? wrong?

It's said they used the original Japanese OP and ED for the first
three
or so volumes for MS Gundam TV and then were asked by Sunrise to
use the
Cartoon Network version OP and ED for all the volumes thereafter.

[Antonio E. Gonzalez]

Date: 12/22/2004 5:48 PM Pacific Standard Time

Post by Steve Harrison
Answer me a question, because I am ignorant here...what did

Bandai

Post by Steve Harrison
Visual (US) do with the OP and ED songs for their dub only Mobile

Suit

Post by Steve Harrison
Gundam? Was there anything different between the CN airing and

the

Post by Steve Harrison
DVDs?
Because my baseline assumption is the Zeta Gundam release is just
following in the footsteps....right? wrong?

It's said they used the original Japanese OP and ED for the first
three
or so volumes for MS Gundam TV and then were asked by Sunrise to
use the
Cartoon Network version OP and ED for all the volumes thereafter.

As for other changes: I'll just say Frau Bau wasn't really wearing a
swimsuit when she was washing the kids!


- Vaughner

- "Let's beat the terrorists with our most powerful weapon . . . hot
girl-on-girl action!"

[Invid Fan]

In article

Post by Steve Harrison
But as I understand it, JASRAC is patterned pretty close on ASCAP... OTOH,
I'm sure there's that Japanese 'twist' to things....so...hm...
I'm just putting it out there, naa mean? :)

It comes down to whether the song was written for the series, or an
existing one Bandai "rented". Just because you create a song doesn't
mean you own the rights: if the contract you signed says that in
exchange for payment the company gets all rights to your song forever,
then that's that. Being a 'star', Sedaka probably was able to get a
better deal then most but any rights he didn't care about would
probably be gladly sold in exchange for more cash upfront.

Post by Steve Harrison
Answer me a question, because I am ignorant here...what did Bandai Visual
(US) do with the OP and ED songs for their dub only Mobile Suit Gundam?
Was there anything different between the CN airing and the DVDs?
Because my baseline assumption is the Zeta Gundam release is just
following in the footsteps....right? wrong?

Wrong, as they're nothing alike :)

[Jorge R. Frank]

Post by Steve Harrison

Post by Stainless Steel Rat
| But....this is all nonsense....I can't figure out how come people
| keep forgetting that
| Bandai *is* Sunrise...There's no rights issue to really have a
| problem over, not the same as if ADV or someone had licensed the
| show.....
But it is not Bandai or Sunrise that has the theme music rights. It
is King Records if I recall correctly.

That is correct...King/Starchild has been partnered for years with
Sunrise, just as Toei has its deals with Nippon Columbia...errr,
Columbia Music Entertainment Inc.
What I was trying to say in my inept way was, the handling of
licensing of the music (which is *also* held by King- BGM as well as
song) for Bandai would not be as difficult as it might be for ADV or
CPM or someone else...there's a pre-existing relationship, there's the
fact that all the contracts were doubtlessly dealt with when Zeta came
out on DVD in Japan (and, frankly, probably back when it came out on
LD), etc.

Bandai Visual being the US arm of Sunrise may help in negotiations with
Sunrise, but I doubt that King Records would be impressed; they'll deal
with anyone as long as the number of digits to the left of the decimal
point is right. And this *could* be an issue of "perceived value": in
Japan, anime OP-ED songs get released as singles and make more money, while
BGM only gets released on full-length CDs. In the US, CD singles aren't
really viable economically; OP-ED songs are less valuable since they only
get released on soundtrack CDs.

So King Records may be pricing the OP-ED licenses based on the expectation
of singles revenue, while Bandai Visual has a (presumably much lower) "not-
to-exceed" price for negotiations based on *not* releasing them as singles.
To throw some made-up (but hopefully not too outlandish) numbers into the
discussion, say King Records prices the R1 license for the OP-ED songs at
$100K. If Bandai Visual is projecting selling 5K box sets, that comes to
$20 per set... and adding $20 to the price of the set would likely be a
deal-breaker for enough customers to offset the added sales to those
hardcore fans who just won't buy the set without the original OP-EDs.

(I would call it a moot point anyway because any Z Gundam fan worth his
salt is going to cue up the appropriate "TV size" tracks on the CD player
while watching the episodes on "mute" on the DVD player... the CD versions
sound much better than the mono mixes included with the episodes.)

[Chris Sobieniak]

Post by Jorge R. Frank
My main disappointment is that this decision will
keep Neil Sedaka's best work since "Calendar Girl"
and "Breakin' Up is Hard to Do" from a larger
audience. :-) (One of my favorite anime trivia
questions, since even those who are familiar with
both Sedaka and the Z Gundam themes can't
believe he wrote them until I freeze-frame the
credits and show them...)

I couldn't believe my own mom actually sang with him once either!
(actually she met him while he was on tour in the '60s and backed him up
on one concert, but it's enough proof for me)

Post by Jorge R. Frank
Oh well, I'm sure someone will post rips of the
OP-ED animation from the R2 DVDs. If not, I
could cap them off my LD box set... once I figure
out how to use the conversion software.
--
JRF

A friend of mine's way ahead of you! :-)

From the Master of Car-too-nal Knowledge...
Christopher M. Sobieniak

--"Fightin' the Frizzies since 1978"--

[Kuno Christoffel]

A quick update--I showed the first two episodes to my mother, who is
*convinced* that the AEUG are the bad guys, and asked when Camille is
going to leave them. :)

- K.C.

[Neil Nadelman]

Post by Kuno Christoffel
A quick update--I showed the first two episodes to my mother, who is
*convinced* that the AEUG are the bad guys, and asked when Camille is
going to leave them. :)

I think that's the result of years of relentless media
programming that anti-government "terrorist" organizations must always
be the bad guys.

-----------------------------------------------------
Neil Nadelman ***@navzr-genafyngbe.pbz (ROT13)
-----------------------------------------------------
I have no fears in life,
for I have already survived Theta-G!

[Sea Wasp]

Post by Neil Nadelman

Post by Kuno Christoffel
A quick update--I showed the first two episodes to my mother, who is
*convinced* that the AEUG are the bad guys, and asked when Camille is
going to leave them. :)

I think that's the result of years of relentless media
programming that anti-government "terrorist" organizations must always
be the bad guys.

And the result of the typical Gundam ambiguity. "Who are the good
guys" is the favorite game to play in Gundam series (aside, perhaps,
from G-Gundam). Look at our so-called "heroes" in GWing -- a bunch of
literal terrorists, all five. One human Terminator, one
emotionally-flat affect Harlequin, an honor-obsessed "freedom
fighter", one hypocritical little rich boy, and a cheerful psychopath.
And these guys become heroes in the end.

[Neil Nadelman]

On Fri, 24 Dec 2004 14:44:59 GMT, Sea Wasp

Post by Sea Wasp

Post by Neil Nadelman
I think that's the result of years of relentless media
programming that anti-government "terrorist" organizations must always
be the bad guys.

And the result of the typical Gundam ambiguity. "Who are the good
guys" is the favorite game to play in Gundam series (aside, perhaps,
from G-Gundam). Look at our so-called "heroes" in GWing -- a bunch of
literal terrorists, all five. One human Terminator, one
emotionally-flat affect Harlequin, an honor-obsessed "freedom
fighter", one hypocritical little rich boy, and a cheerful psychopath.
And these guys become heroes in the end.

Well, always found the heroes of Gundam Wing to be really
creepy and off-puting, although none are as creepy as Relena "Creepy
Girl" Peacecraft. As far as the AEUG goes, they are most definitely
the good guys in the Gundam universe. They're basically the
idealistic wing of the Zeon Zum Daikun's contolist movement. The
worst guy we see among them is what's his name, that Hong Kong
businessman who beats the crap out of Camille--

Say, that reminds me. How do they spell his name now? Is it
Camille or Kamil? I sort of got the idea lately that his mom named
him Kamil and Jerid Messa just heard it and assumed it was spelled as
the feminine Camille form.

-----------------------------------------------------
Neil Nadelman ***@navzr-genafyngbe.pbz (ROT13)
-----------------------------------------------------
I have no fears in life,
for I have already survived Theta-G!

[Stainless Steel Rat]

* Neil Nadelman <***@navzr-genafyngbe.pbz (ROT13)> on Fri, 24 Dec 2004
| Well, always found the heroes of Gundam Wing to be really
| creepy and off-puting, although none are as creepy as Relena "Creepy
| Girl" Peacecraft. As far as the AEUG goes, they are most definitely

At least Duo has a sense of humor.

| the good guys in the Gundam universe. They're basically the
| idealistic wing of the Zeon Zum Daikun's contolist movement. The
| worst guy we see among them is what's his name, that Hong Kong
| businessman who beats the crap out of Camille--

And Char Aznable. Not high on my "good guy list". In the end there are no
"good guys" when it comes to war in any of Tomino's universes, just warring
states and people caught in the middle.

| Say, that reminds me. How do they spell his name now? Is it
| Camille or Kamil? I sort of got the idea lately that his mom named
| him Kamil and Jerid Messa just heard it and assumed it was spelled as
| the feminine Camille form.

The French Camille is a man's name, not a woman's. Vidan is a French
family name, and Camille's family could be of French descent. To an
American, though, Camille is a woman's name, as are names like Carol,
Kelly, and others.

"Kamiyu" might be a transliteration of Camus. I have seen that rendition
of Camus -- as in Albert Camus -- in several other places. I can easilly
see Tomino nodding his head to the existentialist philosopher.

[Ethan Hammond]

Post by Stainless Steel Rat
And Char Aznable. Not high on my "good guy list". In the end there are no
"good guys" when it comes to war in any of Tomino's universes, just warring
states and people caught in the middle.

Although I like shows better that are like that, it is more realistic.

--
All Purpose Cultural Randomness
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/apcr/index.html

[Stainless Steel Rat]

* Neil Nadelman <***@navzr-genafyngbe.pbz (ROT13)> on Fri, 24 Dec 2004
| I think that's the result of years of relentless media
| programming that anti-government "terrorist" organizations must always
| be the bad guys.

And that no organization of more than 2 poeple in any Gundam universe is
"good".

[Ethan Hammond]

Post by Neil Nadelman

Post by Kuno Christoffel
A quick update--I showed the first two episodes to my mother, who is
*convinced* that the AEUG are the bad guys, and asked when Camille is
going to leave them. :)

I think that's the result of years of relentless media
programming that anti-government "terrorist" organizations must always
be the bad guys.

Except for in Star Wars!!!!

--
All Purpose Cultural Randomness
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/apcr/index.html

[Kuno Christoffel]

Post by Neil Nadelman

Post by Kuno Christoffel
A quick update--I showed the first two episodes to my mother, who is
*convinced* that the AEUG are the bad guys, and asked when Camille is
going to leave them. :)

I think that's the result of years of relentless media
programming that anti-government "terrorist" organizations must always
be the bad guys.

Hah, not my hippie mom. More like four movies worth of programming
that Bright Noa is on the good side and Char Aznable is on the bad
side...

It must have come as a shock to the original Japanese viewers that
the Earth Federation forces were the bad guys and the guys in one-
eyed mobile suits attacking a colony to capture the Gundams were
the good guys, though. Unless TV Magazine was as spoiler-filled
in '85 as it is now.

- K.C.