Discussion:
An Open Letter to Kun Gao: Re: Your Ransom Note to the Remaining Anime Industry
(too old to reply)
Starcade
2009-07-05 22:46:38 UTC
Permalink
You and your company, Mr. Gao, should be rotting in prison, you
motherfuckers.

I would like to thank you, your company, your illegal business model,
and your vision of the Internet for destroying anime.

When AX 2008 offered your piece of shit ass a legitimate place at the
table, it basically ended the largest anime convention's real role as
the centerpiece of an anime industry you and a bunch of illegally-
based leeches have turned into an archaic irrelevancy.

The Internet has made clear the value and cost of entertainment???

Well, that is if you consider the actual financial value of anime to
be zero.

All the Internet has done has killed at least 3 major licensors (ADV,
Bandai Visual USA, and Geneon USA), leaving most of the remaining
players on the ropes.

You admit, later, that over 80% of online anime viewing is within 30
days of the release -- effectively rendering (as I said in my article
responding to Mr. Kleckner) any sales model irrelevant.

How, in your world, you fucking piece of shit, are the anime companies
in Japan supposed to recover $100K (minimum) an episode to cover their
costs? You ever think of that?

You ever think of the amount of anime you and your fucking "fanbase"
have already destroyed because of your illegal business model??

And don't get on any high horse of legitimacy. The moment you go
legit for good, the "fanbase" will destroy you as quickly as they've
destroyed the DVD-based industry.

Why don't you just come out and admit that you _are_ the industry,
now?

I love this description of the Internet: As a force of "DISTRUPTIVE
innovation".

You want to finish the fucking job, don't you.

Well, should you succeed, count me the fuck out of your anime vision,
you cocksucking son of a bitch. Be glad I'm banned from that show.

Mike
Nobody
2009-07-06 03:08:46 UTC
Permalink
Who is Kun Gao?? What company does he run??

Thanks,
Bill N.
I-Con Science Fiction, Inc.
20 Peachtree Court
Suite 103J
Holtsville, NY
Post by Starcade
You and your company, Mr. Gao, should be rotting in prison, you
motherfuckers.
I would like to thank you, your company, your illegal business model,
and your vision of the Internet for destroying anime.
When AX 2008 offered your piece of shit ass a legitimate place at the
table, it basically ended the largest anime convention's real role as
the centerpiece of an anime industry you and a bunch of illegally-
based leeches have turned into an archaic irrelevancy.
The Internet has made clear the value and cost of entertainment???
Well, that is if you consider the actual financial value of anime to
be zero.
All the Internet has done has killed at least 3 major licensors (ADV,
Bandai Visual USA, and Geneon USA), leaving most of the remaining
players on the ropes.
You admit, later, that over 80% of online anime viewing is within 30
days of the release -- effectively rendering (as I said in my article
responding to Mr. Kleckner) any sales model irrelevant.
How, in your world, you fucking piece of shit, are the anime companies
in Japan supposed to recover $100K (minimum) an episode to cover their
costs? You ever think of that?
You ever think of the amount of anime you and your fucking "fanbase"
have already destroyed because of your illegal business model??
And don't get on any high horse of legitimacy. The moment you go
legit for good, the "fanbase" will destroy you as quickly as they've
destroyed the DVD-based industry.
Why don't you just come out and admit that you _are_ the industry,
now?
I love this description of the Internet: As a force of "DISTRUPTIVE
innovation".
You want to finish the fucking job, don't you.
Well, should you succeed, count me the fuck out of your anime vision,
you cocksucking son of a bitch. Be glad I'm banned from that show.
Mike
Travers
2009-07-06 03:32:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nobody
Who is Kun Gao?? What company does he run??
CEO of Crunchyroll. A video-streaming website that was famous
(infamous?) for being a place where people uploaded fansubs, even for
series that had been licensed. They then started charging money for
high-speed access or uploading (which they kept for themselves).

Mike believes Crunchyroll made its money from piracy (which from a
legal point of view, Mike is right), and has no right being treated as
a legitimate company.
Starcade
2009-07-06 07:40:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nobody
Who is Kun Gao?? What company does he run??
CEO of Crunchyroll.  A video-streaming website that was famous
(infamous?) for being a place where people uploaded fansubs, even for
series that had been licensed.  They then started charging money for
high-speed access or uploading (which they kept for themselves).
And then, about 18 months ago, they were the ones getting venture-
capital money for their business ventures, and now have become a major
licensing player as they try to purport a (IMODO, false) sense of
legitimacy, as they attempt to become the sole remaining anime
industry (which all but should've happened already, but give it only a
short time further, it would seem...)
Mike believes Crunchyroll made its money from piracy (which from a
legal point of view, Mike is right), and has no right being treated as
a legitimate company.
For that reason.

Now, you've basically got Mr. Gao telling the rest of the industry to
FOAD. We can do it faster, we can do it better, and you have no place
in the future of anime.

If that's the case, Mr. Gao, then _I_ have no place in the future of
anime either, you cocksucking son of a bitch.

May you live in interesting times, Mr. Gao.

Mike
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
2009-07-06 10:43:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Starcade
If that's the case, Mr. Gao, then _I_ have no place in the future of
anime either,
You haven't had any for a long time. You've only been here to bitch and
bitch and bitch, bitch (to use your own gender-confused terminology).
Your discussion of anything even vaguely anime has been less common than
it is in r.a.sf.w, a completely non-anime newsgroup.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Starcade
2009-07-06 16:20:32 UTC
Permalink
On Jul 6, 3:43 am, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
Post by Starcade
If that's the case, Mr. Gao, then _I_ have no place in the future of
anime either,
        You haven't had any for a long time. You've only been here to bitch and
bitch and bitch, bitch (to use your own gender-confused terminology).
Your discussion of anything even vaguely anime has been less common than
it is in r.a.sf.w, a completely non-anime newsgroup.
The sickest part of that is to understand that, should that be true,
that is due to the criminal conduct of a bunch of little children who
basically have decided to seize anime for their very own.

(And that's not just seizing individual anime, but to seize the very
essence of what anime _was_, but is no more...)

Mike
Brian Henderson
2009-07-06 20:58:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Post by Starcade
If that's the case, Mr. Gao, then _I_ have no place in the future of
anime either,
You haven't had any for a long time. You've only been here to bitch
and bitch and bitch, bitch (to use your own gender-confused
terminology). Your discussion of anything even vaguely anime has been
less common than it is in r.a.sf.w, a completely non-anime newsgroup.
Shhhh, don't confuse the retard with reality, let him keep living in his
little fantasy world where anything that he spews from his piehole
actually makes a bit of difference.
Starcade
2009-07-07 16:49:23 UTC
Permalink
On Jul 6, 1:58 pm, Brian Henderson
Post by Brian Henderson
Post by Starcade
If that's the case, Mr. Gao, then _I_ have no place in the future of
anime either,
    You haven't had any for a long time. You've only been here to bitch
and bitch and bitch, bitch (to use your own gender-confused
terminology). Your discussion of anything even vaguely anime has been
less common than it is in r.a.sf.w, a completely non-anime newsgroup.
Shhhh, don't confuse the retard with reality, let him keep living in his
little fantasy world where anything that he spews from his piehole
actually makes a bit of difference.
Fuck you, bitch.

No, seriously.

The only reason what I say doesn't make that much of a difference is
because so many people have decided it's better to steal the product
that there is less and less product out there.

Mike
Brian Henderson
2009-07-07 18:32:41 UTC
Permalink
On Jul 6, 1:58 pm, Brian Henderson
Post by Brian Henderson
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Post by Starcade
If that's the case, Mr. Gao, then _I_ have no place in the future of
anime either,
You haven't had any for a long time. You've only been here to bitch
and bitch and bitch, bitch (to use your own gender-confused
terminology). Your discussion of anything even vaguely anime has been
less common than it is in r.a.sf.w, a completely non-anime newsgroup.
Shhhh, don't confuse the retard with reality, let him keep living in his
little fantasy world where anything that he spews from his piehole
actually makes a bit of difference.
Fuck you, bitch.
No, seriously.
The only reason what I say doesn't make that much of a difference is
because so many people have decided it's better to steal the product
that there is less and less product out there.
See? Completely delusional.
Starcade
2009-07-08 09:27:45 UTC
Permalink
On Jul 7, 11:32 am, Brian Henderson
Post by Starcade
The only reason what I say doesn't make that much of a difference is
because so many people have decided it's better to steal the product
that there is less and less product out there.
See?  Completely delusional.
The numbers are out there, unless you believe them all to be lies.

Mike
Nobody
2009-07-08 14:40:30 UTC
Permalink
Hello Mike,

"The numbers are out there." I'm sincerely interested in seeing these facts
and figures. However, I'm right in the middle of searching for new
employment and don't have a lot of time to invest in anime. If you or
somebody you know/trust has summarized said facts and figures to one short
report, I'd like to see it posted in the NG.

I'm thinking it could be a good research-starting point for a
state-of-the-industry pannel at next year's I-Con convention in Brentwood.

Thanks!
Bill N.
Dealer's Room Staff
I-Con Science Fiction, Inc
20 Peachtree Ct.
Suite 103J
Holbrook, NY 11741

"Starcade" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message news:a6ffd354-c57a-4605-b1ab-***@2g2000prl.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 7, 11:32 am, Brian Henderson
Post by Starcade
The only reason what I say doesn't make that much of a difference is
because so many people have decided it's better to steal the product
that there is less and less product out there.
See? Completely delusional.
The numbers are out there, unless you believe them all to be lies.

Mike
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
2009-07-08 15:36:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nobody
Hello Mike,
"The numbers are out there." I'm sincerely interested in seeing these facts
and figures.
Um, he said "the numbers are out there". What this means in
Starky-speak is "WAAAAAAAY out there. Like my brain".

Mike does not deal in facts and figures. He chooses individual figures
which may support his position in a Jedi sense ("From a Certain Point of
View") and resolutely ignores any counterarguments or facts. To the
point of literally denying a fact given to him with "I don't see how
that could work". The fact that something works doesn't matter to him if
it doesn't accord with his view of the world, said view being that no
one would ever voluntarily pay for anything they could steal, among
other similarly shining examples of his faith in humanity.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Brian Henderson
2009-07-08 19:13:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Post by Nobody
Hello Mike,
"The numbers are out there." I'm sincerely interested in seeing these
facts and figures.
Um, he said "the numbers are out there". What this means in
Starky-speak is "WAAAAAAAY out there. Like my brain".
Mike does not deal in facts and figures. He chooses individual
figures which may support his position in a Jedi sense ("From a Certain
Point of View") and resolutely ignores any counterarguments or facts. To
the point of literally denying a fact given to him with "I don't see how
that could work". The fact that something works doesn't matter to him if
it doesn't accord with his view of the world, said view being that no
one would ever voluntarily pay for anything they could steal, among
other similarly shining examples of his faith in humanity.
Mikey is a whackaloon with a one-track mind that derailed a long time
ago and he just hasn't noticed. He's supremely convinced that he has a
clue what he's talking about and anyone who points out that he doesn't,
he claims is lying.

In short, he's a conspiracy theorist with a piss-poor theory and without
the brainpower to figure out what the problem is.
Derek Janssen
2009-07-08 21:26:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Henderson
Mikey is a whackaloon with a one-track mind that derailed a long time
ago and he just hasn't noticed. He's supremely convinced that he has a
clue what he's talking about and anyone who points out that he doesn't,
he claims is lying.
And then if he finds a name or reference he *thinks* is
someone-else-important enough to agree/wrap himself in, he'll refer all
discussions back to his "hero", regardless of whether or not we know
what the foggy blue heck he's talking about...
But then, you didn't believe HERBERT STEMPEL!!!!

Derek Janssen (or Johnny Fever, either)
***@verizon.net
Starcade
2009-07-09 06:35:08 UTC
Permalink
On Jul 8, 12:13 pm, Brian Henderson
Post by Brian Henderson
Mikey is a whackaloon with a one-track mind that derailed a long time
ago and he just hasn't noticed.  He's supremely convinced that he has a
clue what he's talking about and anyone who points out that he doesn't,
he claims is lying.
In short, he's a conspiracy theorist with a piss-poor theory and without
the brainpower to figure out what the problem is.
Either you're lying or the entire US anime industry has been lying and
defrauding you for a number of years.

Which is it, Brian??

Mike
Brian Henderson
2009-07-09 19:46:06 UTC
Permalink
On Jul 8, 12:13 pm, Brian Henderson
Post by Brian Henderson
Mikey is a whackaloon with a one-track mind that derailed a long time
ago and he just hasn't noticed. He's supremely convinced that he has a
clue what he's talking about and anyone who points out that he doesn't,
he claims is lying.
In short, he's a conspiracy theorist with a piss-poor theory and without
the brainpower to figure out what the problem is.
Either you're lying or the entire US anime industry has been lying and
defrauding you for a number of years.
Which is it, Brian??
If I had to pick, I'd pick the anime industry. I know I'm not lying,
wouldn't trust most of them farther than I could throw them.

And of course, nobody trusts you at all, but that's no surprise there.
Starcade
2009-07-09 20:01:31 UTC
Permalink
On Jul 9, 12:46 pm, Brian Henderson
On Jul 8, 12:13 pm, Brian Henderson
Post by Brian Henderson
Mikey is a whackaloon with a one-track mind that derailed a long time
ago and he just hasn't noticed.  He's supremely convinced that he has a
clue what he's talking about and anyone who points out that he doesn't,
he claims is lying.
In short, he's a conspiracy theorist with a piss-poor theory and without
the brainpower to figure out what the problem is.
Either you're lying or the entire US anime industry has been lying and
defrauding you for a number of years.
Which is it, Brian??
If I had to pick, I'd pick the anime industry.  I know I'm not lying,
wouldn't trust most of them farther than I could throw them.
And of course, nobody trusts you at all, but that's no surprise there.
Considering the source (those like you), I'm not surprised -- but you
made an important statement there I want to explore...

If you want to say that, then you basically have to state that the
entire mechanism behind the US anime industry is a criminal and civil
fraud -- that they are overcharging you to inflate their profits by
massively overstating their costs, and attempting to fleece the
customer base.

(And then, hence, should be put out of business...)

If you "know [you're] not lying", then this is the ONLY result.

Mike (Of course, I believe you are a lying sack of shit, but you did
come up with something very important.)
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
2009-07-09 23:14:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Starcade
If you want to say that, then you basically have to state that the
entire mechanism behind the US anime industry is a criminal and civil
fraud -- that they are overcharging you to inflate their profits by
massively overstating their costs, and attempting to fleece the
customer base.
Removing the "fraud", you're describing "Business As Usual". Buy low,
sell high, try to convince the suckers to pay MUCH more than they would
have to.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Farix
2009-07-09 23:32:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Post by Starcade
If you want to say that, then you basically have to state that the
entire mechanism behind the US anime industry is a criminal and civil
fraud -- that they are overcharging you to inflate their profits by
massively overstating their costs, and attempting to fleece the
customer base.
Removing the "fraud", you're describing "Business As Usual". Buy
low, sell high, try to convince the suckers to pay MUCH more than they
would have to.
We also call it capitalism. But if the consumer things he or she is
being overcharged for a luxury good, then he or she isn't obligated to
purchase it. If enough customers refuse to purchase a product because
they think it is overpriced, then the company selling the product must
either adjust the price or go out of business. That too is part of
capitalism.

Farix
Starcade
2009-07-10 01:07:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Farix
    Removing the "fraud", you're describing "Business As Usual". Buy
low, sell high, try to convince the suckers to pay MUCH more than they
would have to.
We also call it capitalism. But if the consumer things he or she is
being overcharged for a luxury good, then he or she isn't obligated to
purchase it. If enough customers refuse to purchase a product because
they think it is overpriced, then the company selling the product must
either adjust the price or go out of business. That too is part of
capitalism.
However, it is also true that a certain non-zero price level must be
maintained to allow the companies to have the concept of "purchase" as
well.

Mike
Farix
2009-07-10 01:20:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Starcade
Post by Farix
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Removing the "fraud", you're describing "Business As Usual". Buy
low, sell high, try to convince the suckers to pay MUCH more than they
would have to.
We also call it capitalism. But if the consumer things he or she is
being overcharged for a luxury good, then he or she isn't obligated to
purchase it. If enough customers refuse to purchase a product because
they think it is overpriced, then the company selling the product must
either adjust the price or go out of business. That too is part of
capitalism.
However, it is also true that a certain non-zero price level must be
maintained to allow the companies to have the concept of "purchase" as
well.
And how is that price determined? By the market, of course. If a company
can sell more product and those make more profit, by lowering its
prices, then that is exactly what the company will do. If the company
can raise its price and still sale the same amount of product, then it
will continue to raise it price until the sales are adversely affected.

Farix
Starcade
2009-07-10 06:59:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Farix
And how is that price determined? By the market, of course. If a company
can sell more product and those make more profit, by lowering its
prices, then that is exactly what the company will do. If the company
can raise its price and still sale the same amount of product, then it
will continue to raise it price until the sales are adversely affected.
When the market acts in criminal ways, it loses the ability you speak
of. To do otherwise, as demonstrated with the anime industry, kills
the industry outright.

That's what you don't get: The market itself, the fandom especially,
is oversaturated with criminals -- who need to be dealt with if anime
is going to have any future.

This is true of the fansubbers and the fans themselves.

Mike
Farix
2009-07-10 11:35:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Starcade
Post by Farix
And how is that price determined? By the market, of course. If a company
can sell more product and those make more profit, by lowering its
prices, then that is exactly what the company will do. If the company
can raise its price and still sale the same amount of product, then it
will continue to raise it price until the sales are adversely affected.
When the market acts in criminal ways, it loses the ability you speak
of. To do otherwise, as demonstrated with the anime industry, kills
the industry outright.
That's what you don't get: The market itself, the fandom especially,
is oversaturated with criminals -- who need to be dealt with if anime
is going to have any future.
This is true of the fansubbers and the fans themselves.
So everyone is a criminal since they aren't willing to buy overpriced
anime? *smirk*

Farix
Captain Nerd
2009-07-10 12:50:08 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by Starcade
That's what you don't get: The market itself, the fandom especially,
is oversaturated with criminals -- who need to be dealt with if anime
is going to have any future.
This is true of the fansubbers and the fans themselves.
You are an idiot.

Cap.
--
Since 1989, recycling old jokes, cliches, and bad puns, one Usenet
post at a time!
Operation: Nerdwatch http://www.nerdwatch.com
Only email with "TO_CAP" somewhere in the subject has a chance of being read
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
2009-07-10 02:33:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Starcade
Post by Farix
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Removing the "fraud", you're describing "Business As Usual". Buy
low, sell high, try to convince the suckers to pay MUCH more than they
would have to.
We also call it capitalism. But if the consumer things he or she is
being overcharged for a luxury good, then he or she isn't obligated to
purchase it. If enough customers refuse to purchase a product because
they think it is overpriced, then the company selling the product must
either adjust the price or go out of business. That too is part of
capitalism.
However, it is also true that a certain non-zero price level must be
maintained to allow the companies to have the concept of "purchase" as
well.
Which it is. You have utterly failed to answer the fact that people
will purchase stuff they can get for free if it's easy to do and they
feel the price is not unreasonable. So $20.00 for a song, etc.? No,
ain't happenin'. $0.99? Yep, to the tune of a billion plus per year. Pay
more than the hardcover price for a download of a book? Probably not.
Pay $5.00? $3.00? Yeah, they'll do that.

Nearly 15% of my last check from Baen came from electronic purchases of
my books. Two of my three available books are in the Free Library. A
completely legitimate and legal source of FREE copies. And I still have
people pay for those EXACT SAME FILES.

You have never come up with any answer to these inescapable facts, that
people *WILL* do it. All you do is rant and say that you don't believe
it, or that somehow anyone interested in anime is different (despite the
fact that many of those who are readers of my stuff, it turns out, ARE
anime fans).

You have no answer, because this point is unanswerable. The price is
never zero; it's whatever the buyer thinks the entertainment is worth,
MINUS any assholery they associate you with.

If the companies insist on engaging in the jackboot tactics so dear to
your heart, THEY will be the ones determining a zero price point.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Antonio E. Gonzalez
2009-07-10 05:00:11 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 09 Jul 2009 22:33:13 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Post by Starcade
Post by Farix
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Removing the "fraud", you're describing "Business As Usual". Buy
low, sell high, try to convince the suckers to pay MUCH more than they
would have to.
We also call it capitalism. But if the consumer things he or she is
being overcharged for a luxury good, then he or she isn't obligated to
purchase it. If enough customers refuse to purchase a product because
they think it is overpriced, then the company selling the product must
either adjust the price or go out of business. That too is part of
capitalism.
However, it is also true that a certain non-zero price level must be
maintained to allow the companies to have the concept of "purchase" as
well.
Which it is. You have utterly failed to answer the fact that people
will purchase stuff they can get for free if it's easy to do and they
feel the price is not unreasonable. So $20.00 for a song, etc.? No,
ain't happenin'. $0.99? Yep, to the tune of a billion plus per year. Pay
more than the hardcover price for a download of a book? Probably not.
Pay $5.00? $3.00? Yeah, they'll do that.
Nearly 15% of my last check from Baen came from electronic purchases of
my books. Two of my three available books are in the Free Library. A
completely legitimate and legal source of FREE copies. And I still have
people pay for those EXACT SAME FILES.
You have never come up with any answer to these inescapable facts, that
people *WILL* do it. All you do is rant and say that you don't believe
it, or that somehow anyone interested in anime is different (despite the
fact that many of those who are readers of my stuff, it turns out, ARE
anime fans).
You have no answer, because this point is unanswerable. The price is
never zero; it's whatever the buyer thinks the entertainment is worth,
MINUS any assholery they associate you with.
If the companies insist on engaging in the jackboot tactics so dear to
your heart, THEY will be the ones determining a zero price point.
Keep in mind, had Starky been around in the 1950s, he'd been
screaming about how broadcasting movies on television is ruining the
movie industry, because people watching aren't paying anything to see
them! For some people, concepts like ad revenue and broadcast right
are too confusing; when you think about it, Hulu, YouTube,
Crunchyroll, and Joost are latter-day television channels.


--

- ReFlex76
Starcade
2009-07-10 07:11:54 UTC
Permalink
On Jul 9, 7:33 pm, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
Post by Starcade
However, it is also true that a certain non-zero price level must be
maintained to allow the companies to have the concept of "purchase" as
well.
        Which it is. You have utterly failed to answer the fact that people
will purchase stuff they can get for free if it's easy to do and they
feel the price is not unreasonable. So $20.00 for a song, etc.? No,
ain't happenin'. $0.99? Yep, to the tune of a billion plus per year. Pay
more than the hardcover price for a download of a book? Probably not.
Pay $5.00? $3.00? Yeah, they'll do that.
ONLY BECAUSE OF THE RIAA'S ENFORCEMENT.

That's it. The moment that enforcement is smacked down once and for
all, there goes the music industry as it has been known for 40 years
-- and iTunes with it!

You don't get that the only reason that any monetary value is assigned
to much of anything is because you can be jailed (or even shot!) if
you don't pay it.

Otherwise, why buy anything? Why buy anime if the companies aren't
going to eradicate fansubbery from the equation, to the point that
they have bled the entire system dry of all storytelling and animation
quality?

Why buy a PS3 if you can walk in and just take it?? Especially in
this economy...
        Nearly 15% of my last check from Baen came from electronic purchases of
my books. Two of my three available books are in the Free Library. A
completely legitimate and legal source of FREE copies. And I still have
people pay for those EXACT SAME FILES.
WHY??? I wouldn't. No sane person would! You're literally on the
street corner begging for donations for the latest sports-team drive.
        You have never come up with any answer to these inescapable facts, that
people *WILL* do it. All you do is rant and say that you don't believe
it, or that somehow anyone interested in anime is different (despite the
fact that many of those who are readers of my stuff, it turns out, ARE
anime fans).
Because of the fact that the people and the environment *gasp!* ARE
DIFFERENT.

They know the score, and yet openly spit on the industry and hope to,
soon, piss on their collective graves.
        You have no answer, because this point is unanswerable. The price is
never zero; it's whatever the buyer thinks the entertainment is worth,
MINUS any assholery they associate you with.
And there's where you argument completely falls apart.

Though I do openly blame the fans for creating this environment,
Justin Sevakis finishes your argument off with his statement from his
open letter to the industry from about 18 months ago:

"I do not blame the fans who download with impunity and don't buy a
thing. Their attitudes, while damaging, are simply a reflection of the
value of anime, which these days, is about $0.00."

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/editorial/2007-11-25

Your argument dies then and there, Sea Wasp, because ZERO is what the
buyer thinks the entertainment is worth.

And if that were not the case, you wouldn't have an anime fandom 20%
the size of what it is now.
        If the companies insist on engaging in the jackboot tactics so dear to
your heart, THEY will be the ones determining a zero price point.
Fuck you.

No, seriously...

This is why I think you want the business to die.

HOW THE FUCK DO YOU EXPECT ANYBODY (ON EITHER SIDE OF THE PACIFIC) TO
RECOVER THEIR COSTS IN THAT MODEL?

Oh, that's right... Doujinshi-level anime...

Thanks for the offer, but I'll have to pass...

The reason that the jackboot tactics would derive a zero price point
is the very reason the jackboot tactics are required -- these people
won't fucking pay.

If they won't pay, I want them GONE.

And any future anime would have DEMANDS them gone.

Mike
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
2009-07-10 12:36:09 UTC
Permalink
On Jul 9, 7:33 pm, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Post by Starcade
However, it is also true that a certain non-zero price level must be
maintained to allow the companies to have the concept of "purchase" as
well.
Which it is. You have utterly failed to answer the fact that people
will purchase stuff they can get for free if it's easy to do and they
feel the price is not unreasonable. So $20.00 for a song, etc.? No,
ain't happenin'. $0.99? Yep, to the tune of a billion plus per year. Pay
more than the hardcover price for a download of a book? Probably not.
Pay $5.00? $3.00? Yeah, they'll do that.
ONLY BECAUSE OF THE RIAA'S ENFORCEMENT.
No, because they provided the model of purchase that the buyer wanted.
I've bought **MORE** music since iTunes showed up than I had in any of
the years previously. And I'd have bought even more if they had some of
the music on them that I really wanted.

The RIAA is a joke. Their "enforcement" is less dangerous than
lightning. VASTLY less dangerous -- they can't kill me. The chances of
them coming after any individual fan are so small that the ONLY people
who worry about it ARE THE ONES WHO WOULDN'T DOWNLOAD ANYWAY, because
they're simply law-abiding types who feel uncomfortable doing anything
illegal at all, and the RIAA gives them a focus for that discomfort.

Really, if the RIAA/MPAA enforcement had *ANY* effect on the majority
of fans, THEY WOULDN'T HAVE TO DO IT ANY MORE. The fans would have,
mostly, stopped. But they didn't. At the PEAK of the War On Downloading,
where it was still through concentrated sites like Napster, the RIAA
would shut down the largest sites and charge a bunch of people, and NOT
ONE DAY LATER another site would have taken over that position and just
about the same amount of downloading would be going on. Two weeks later,
there'd be MORE downloading going on.

*ANY* contention that the RIAA/MPAA model of enforcement is actually
accomplishing anything other than its *REAL* purpose -- to make the
Board of Directors for the involved companies look like they're "Doing
Something" and have Someone To Blame for any problems -- is ludicrous. I
don't think you could find one fan in a HUNDRED that gives more than a
passing thought to whether the law will notice him or her.
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Nearly 15% of my last check from Baen came from electronic purchases of
my books. Two of my three available books are in the Free Library. A
completely legitimate and legal source of FREE copies. And I still have
people pay for those EXACT SAME FILES.
WHY??? I wouldn't. No sane person would! You're literally on the
street corner begging for donations for the latest sports-team drive.
And once more you prove me right. You have NO ANSWER except to,
basically, say that you don't believe it, and assert that the audience
is different --- even when I have direct evidence that much of my own
fanbase IS part of the same fanbase.

You're pathetic. You want SO DESPERATELY to believe in this
Anipocalypse that you simply deny anything that might argue against your
belief.

Your "evidence" consists of one quote from one fan saying anime is
worth zero.

My evidence is actually getting significant chunks of money from people
paying me for something they could get for free.

My evidence is hard, cold, cash. Yours is the rantings of a loser --
well, two losers, the one you quote, and you.

I think that's me for Teh Win.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Captain Nerd
2009-07-10 12:53:43 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by Starcade
The reason that the jackboot tactics would derive a zero price point
is the very reason the jackboot tactics are required -- these people
won't fucking pay.
If they won't pay, I want them GONE.
So, what are you going to do about it, "bitch'?

Oh, wait, that's all you're going to do about it. Bitch and whine
and moan and kvetch and whimper and cry and wail.

Because you really are an idiot.

Cap.
--
Since 1989, recycling old jokes, cliches, and bad puns, one Usenet
post at a time!
Operation: Nerdwatch http://www.nerdwatch.com
Only email with "TO_CAP" somewhere in the subject has a chance of being read
ender
2009-07-10 10:58:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Pay
more than the hardcover price for a download of a book? Probably not.
I was really surprised by this about a year ago - I was looking for a book,
found that it's available as e-book in mobipocket format (which my Iliad
reader supports), but in the end the hardcover from Amazon cost me the same
amount with shipping (and no DRM). Oh, and I downloaded a scanned copy for
my reader while waiting for the book to arrive.
--
< ender ><><><><><><><>◊<><><><><><><>◊<><><><><><><>< e at ena dot si >

Because 10 billion years' time is so fragile, so ephemeral...
it arouses such a bittersweet, almost heartbreaking fondness.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
2009-07-10 12:39:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by ender
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Pay
more than the hardcover price for a download of a book? Probably not.
I was really surprised by this about a year ago - I was looking for a book,
found that it's available as e-book in mobipocket format (which my Iliad
reader supports), but in the end the hardcover from Amazon cost me the same
amount with shipping (and no DRM). Oh, and I downloaded a scanned copy for
my reader while waiting for the book to arrive.
Yeah. A lot of the book companies Don't Quite Get It. They still want
to charge physical-market prices for electronic copies. Then they blame
the electronic market for their stupidity.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Giovanni Wassen
2009-07-10 11:47:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Farix
We also call it capitalism. But if the consumer things he or she is
being overcharged for a luxury good, then he or she isn't obligated to
purchase it. If enough customers refuse to purchase a product because
they think it is overpriced, then the company selling the product must
either adjust the price or go out of business. That too is part of
capitalism.
Which leads us to shareholders demanding a big profit. Companies laying off
thousands of people while make millions in profit but the shareholders are
big whiners who want more money. That too is part of capitalism.

Funny thing about the thought patterns of some people is they neglect some
basic things about the economy. Demand sets prices, not only costs. It's
what people are willing to pay.

And I'm willing to pay up to $ 40 for a complete boxset with 26 eps. If
they don't offer it for that price I won't buy, it's quite simple :)
--
Gio

http://www.watkijkikoptv.info
http://myanimelist.net/profile/extatix
http://watkijkikoptv.info/animeblog
Farix
2009-07-10 12:35:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Giovanni Wassen
Post by Farix
We also call it capitalism. But if the consumer things he or she is
being overcharged for a luxury good, then he or she isn't obligated to
purchase it. If enough customers refuse to purchase a product because
they think it is overpriced, then the company selling the product must
either adjust the price or go out of business. That too is part of
capitalism.
Which leads us to shareholders demanding a big profit. Companies laying off
thousands of people while make millions in profit but the shareholders are
big whiners who want more money. That too is part of capitalism.
And if the company still brings in the same income without those
employees, then it is a sign that those employees were just dead
weight. Yes, that may sound cruel,
Post by Giovanni Wassen
Funny thing about the thought patterns of some people is they neglect some
basic things about the economy. Demand sets prices, not only costs. It's
what people are willing to pay.
It's the law of supply and demand. Unfortunately, too many people
don't understand this simple concept.
Post by Giovanni Wassen
And I'm willing to pay up to $ 40 for a complete boxset with 26 eps. If
they don't offer it for that price I won't buy, it's quite simple :)
How much I'm willing to pay depends very much on how much I like the
show to begin with. Which is why I incorproate a "will I buy it"
methodology into determining which fansubs to follow.

Farix
Giovanni Wassen
2009-07-10 12:41:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Farix
How much I'm willing to pay depends very much on how much I like the
show to begin with. Which is why I incorproate a "will I buy it"
methodology into determining which fansubs to follow.
Hm, that's a good methodology which in my case won't always work, I do
watch Naruto and Bleach but won't buy it because of the damned fillers for
example.
--
Gio

http://www.watkijkikoptv.info
http://myanimelist.net/profile/extatix
http://watkijkikoptv.info/animeblog
Starcade
2009-07-10 01:05:55 UTC
Permalink
On Jul 9, 4:14 pm, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
Post by Starcade
If you want to say that, then you basically have to state that the
entire mechanism behind the US anime industry is a criminal and civil
fraud -- that they are overcharging you to inflate their profits by
massively overstating their costs, and attempting to fleece the
customer base.
        Removing the "fraud", you're describing "Business As Usual". Buy low,
sell high, try to convince the suckers to pay MUCH more than they would
have to.
"Business as Usual", if you read many of the blogs and things which I
have (and most of which have nothing to do with anime) would be
actionable violations of criminal and civil law, by overcharging you
to inflate their profits, yadda, yadda, yadda...

That it's business as usual does not mean that significant court-
actionable fraud is taking place.

Mike (In fact, there are many who would maintain that degree of fraud
being necessary to maintain business at all in this day and age.
Which see most of the major banks, Goldman Sachs, etc.)
Farix
2009-07-10 01:13:30 UTC
Permalink
On Jul 9, 4:14 pm, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Post by Starcade
If you want to say that, then you basically have to state that the
entire mechanism behind the US anime industry is a criminal and civil
fraud -- that they are overcharging you to inflate their profits by
massively overstating their costs, and attempting to fleece the
customer base.
Removing the "fraud", you're describing "Business As Usual". Buy low,
sell high, try to convince the suckers to pay MUCH more than they would
have to.
"Business as Usual", if you read many of the blogs and things which I
have (and most of which have nothing to do with anime) would be
actionable violations of criminal and civil law, by overcharging you
to inflate their profits, yadda, yadda, yadda...
What control legal authority determines when something is being
overcharged and when a business is making too much profit on its
produces or services? Oh that's right, there is no such authority.
That it's business as usual does not mean that significant court-
actionable fraud is taking place.
And exactly what fraud would that be? If you have direct evidence of
fruad, then you should turn that evidence over to your state's attorney
general. But if all you have is accusations then the AG will tell you to
go home after they had a good laugh.

Farix
Starcade
2009-07-10 06:55:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Farix
What control legal authority determines when something is being
overcharged and when a business is making too much profit on its
produces or services? Oh that's right, there is no such authority.
I would suggest, in various manners, various oversight groups,
depending on the product involved (the SEC for securities, perhaps the
FDA for food and drugs, etc.). I would think various consumer groups
would be involved in this particular case.
Post by Farix
Post by Starcade
That it's business as usual does not mean that significant court-
actionable fraud is taking place.
And exactly what fraud would that be? If you have direct evidence of
fruad, then you should turn that evidence over to your state's attorney
general. But if all you have is accusations then the AG will tell you to
go home after they had a good laugh.
If the entire basis for the anime industry (and their anti-fansub
position) are lies, then the "evidence" produced would have to be put
into question as that they are grossly overestimating their costs and
underestimating their sales in an attempt to defraud you.

You're the one who would have that "evidence" if you believe their
positions to be lies.

I'm trying to force you to admit that that is where you would have to
go if you continue to choose to disbelieve the industry's position.

Mike
Farix
2009-07-10 11:31:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Starcade
Post by Farix
What control legal authority determines when something is being
overcharged and when a business is making too much profit on its
produces or services? Oh that's right, there is no such authority.
I would suggest, in various manners, various oversight groups,
depending on the product involved (the SEC for securities, perhaps the
FDA for food and drugs, etc.). I would think various consumer groups
would be involved in this particular case.
On other words, there is no such controlling legal authority that
determines when something is being overcharged or when a business is
making too much profit. The SEC only checks to make sure that publicly
traded companies aren't cooking the books to make them selves look
better then they really are in order to attract more investors. The FDA
is a product safety board, but has no authority to set prices or limit
profits.
Post by Starcade
Post by Farix
Post by Starcade
That it's business as usual does not mean that significant court-
actionable fraud is taking place.
And exactly what fraud would that be? If you have direct evidence of
fruad, then you should turn that evidence over to your state's attorney
general. But if all you have is accusations then the AG will tell you to
go home after they had a good laugh.
If the entire basis for the anime industry (and their anti-fansub
position) are lies, then the "evidence" produced would have to be put
into question as that they are grossly overestimating their costs and
underestimating their sales in an attempt to defraud you.
Companies have stopped blaming fansubs for a while because everyone else
recognized it as a scapegoat that it was. And even if fansubs suddenly
disappeared overnight, the other problems that anime companies are
facing—such as the shrinking market do to anime no longer being a fad,
high license fees, networks dropping anime programing because it is no
longer as cheap as it was or had low ROI compared to other competing
programing, and etc.—aren't go away.
Post by Starcade
I'm trying to force you to admit that that is where you would have to
go if you continue to choose to disbelieve the industry's position.
Scapegoating is not illegal, nor is it really fraud as it doesn't
encourage or force me to purchase a product that I wouldn't want in the
first place. Dishonest maybe, but that's about all it is.

Farix
Brian Henderson
2009-07-10 06:08:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Post by Starcade
If you want to say that, then you basically have to state that the
entire mechanism behind the US anime industry is a criminal and civil
fraud -- that they are overcharging you to inflate their profits by
massively overstating their costs, and attempting to fleece the
customer base.
Removing the "fraud", you're describing "Business As Usual". Buy
low, sell high, try to convince the suckers to pay MUCH more than they
would have to.
And when the consumers don't want to pay the ridiculous prices you're
asking, point your fingers at everyone else and try to place the blame
anywhere but on yourself.

Pretty typical.
Starcade
2009-07-10 07:41:47 UTC
Permalink
On Jul 9, 11:08 pm, Brian Henderson
Post by Brian Henderson
And when the consumers don't want to pay the ridiculous prices you're
asking, point your fingers at everyone else and try to place the blame
anywhere but on yourself.
Pretty typical.
The consumers are engaging in rampant criminal conduct. I damned well
have the right to point the fingers at those "consumers", at that
point.

Mike
Starcade
2009-07-09 06:33:56 UTC
Permalink
On Jul 8, 8:36 am, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
Post by Nobody
Hello Mike,
"The numbers are out there."  I'm sincerely interested in seeing these facts
and figures.
        Um, he said "the numbers are out there". What this means in
Starky-speak is "WAAAAAAAY out there. Like my brain".
Umm, nice try, bitch.

Really nice try.

I just put some of the most prominent numbers right in front of you,
with relevant source-work (!!!), and you'll still deny them because
you (like the vast supermajority of anime fandom) are a thieving,
lying, bitch.

(My apologies to Bill N., who is fully willing to see the figures and
then draw his own conclusions. Unlike you, and unlike the vast
majority of anime fandom.)

Oh, Bill N.:

How much is the vast majority of anime fandom?

"Robert", of Robert's Anime Corner Store (one of the most prominent
online stores out there for anime), said this upon my presentation of
the 6,000,000/week number I gave you in my direct response to you:

"Going forward the biggest threat to the industry as a whole is ever
diminishing returns. If the statistic is correct that 6,000,000
episodes are being file shared every week, then that is disturbing
indeed because I could not estimate more than 250,000 or 300,000
episodes being sold per week worldwide between legal download and DVD,
with most of those sales being in Japan. That would mean perhaps 5% of
the worldwide Anime market is now paid. That number, if in the
ballpark, is almost unfathomable."

(http://animecornerstore.blogspot.com/2009/01/perhaps-sales-are-down-
so-much-at.html) -- January 2009.

He is essentially saying that, if the number of correct, that 95%+ of
the anime consumed worldwide is _stolen_.

That is how much the vast majority of anime fandom is a bunch of lying
thieves.
        Mike does not deal in facts and figures.
Correction: I don't deal in facts and figures which agree with the
consensus view of a bunch of lying fucktards -- the anime fandom in
2009.
He chooses individual figures
which may support his position in a Jedi sense ("From a Certain Point of
View") and resolutely ignores any counterarguments or facts. To the
The only counterargument you could make is that the entire anime
industry in the US is one big fat fraud. I'm still waiting for you to
say that.

Then, and ONLY then, can we start to have an intelligent
conversation. As I said in what Bill responded to with the desire for
figures: The only way your argument works is if all the numbers lie.
point of literally denying a fact given to him with "I don't see how
that could work". The fact that something works doesn't matter to him if
it doesn't accord with his view of the world, said view being that no
one would ever voluntarily pay for anything they could steal, among
other similarly shining examples of his faith in humanity.
Why would they? And why _SHOULD_ they if there is no demand for
recompense?

Mike
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
2009-07-09 11:16:44 UTC
Permalink
On Jul 8, 8:36 am, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Post by Nobody
Hello Mike,
"The numbers are out there." I'm sincerely interested in seeing these facts
and figures.
Um, he said "the numbers are out there". What this means in
Starky-speak is "WAAAAAAAY out there. Like my brain".
Umm, nice try, bitch.
Really nice try.
I just put some of the most prominent numbers right in front of you,
with relevant source-work (!!!), and you'll still deny them because
you (like the vast supermajority of anime fandom) are a thieving,
lying, bitch.
No, I will simply ignore your gender-confused rant and point out that
you post numbers that have NO RELATION to each other: how much it costs
to make anime, and how many downloads there are.

You have *NO* -- let me repeat that, NO -- numbers or research to show
what effect the downloads may have, or what effect -- for instance --
permitting easy, inexpensive downloads from the site, concurrent with
broadcast, would have, or indeed any of the other possible permutations
of the market.

Instead, you use the RIAA/MPAA tired, old, incredibly stupid "logic"
that one download = lost sale. With no more justification than they
have. Which is basically zero.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Starcade
2009-07-09 19:19:51 UTC
Permalink
On Jul 9, 4:16 am, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
        No, I will simply ignore your gender-confused rant and point out that
you post numbers that have NO RELATION to each other: how much it costs
to make anime, and how many downloads there are.
Yeah, that's right -- you IGNORE:

-- Surveys on the number of illegal downloads
-- Figures on the cost of creation of anime
-- Statements by people who might know a thing or two about the
subject on the impact of same
-- and a little mathematics thrown in...
        You have *NO* -- let me repeat that, NO -- numbers or research to show
what effect the downloads may have, or what effect -- for instance --
permitting easy, inexpensive downloads from the site, concurrent with
broadcast, would have, or indeed any of the other possible permutations
of the market.
The numbers themselves, along with the complete disintegration of the
US DVD market the last several years, tell the story on their own.

This is why that judge's ruling from earlier this year dis-equating
(if that's understandable to you) an illegal download from a lost sale
completely kills any expectation of any sale -- because if you can't
(as a copyright holder or assigned licensee) completely control the
dissemination of your product to only authorized ends, you have no
discernible copy right to expect a sale on the back end.

The anime industry proves this _cleanly_.

This is where your continued delusional rantings, _even when presented
with sourced numbers_, make you such a joke. A bitch. An idiot.

Here: Let me give you one more gem I was given last night by another
poster to the newsgroup:

(And this one answers a fairly long-standing question of mine
regarding one particular property, and the actual state of the US
anime industry...)

(And here's another interesting factoid for you, Bill N., for your
panel ...)

This is from Navarre's own 10K report (http://ccbn.10kwizard.com/xml/
download.php?repo=tenk&ipage=6372212&format=PDF), fiscal year ending
March 31, 2009.

-- Best Buy sales to Navarre products are 35% of the total DVD sales
of the company. (An approximately 50% increase in share over two
years ago.
-- The key point I was given is on Page 15 of this report:

Quoting:

"In particular, one licensed property accounted for $32.0 million, of
46%, of FUNimation's revenues for the fiscal year ended March 31,
2009."

and

"During the fiscal year ended March 31, 2009, 66% of FUNimation's
revenues were derived from sales of products under ... arrangements
with three licensors. The loss of any of these licensing
relationships could have a material negative effect on FUNimation's
revenues."

Let's examine those numbers for a moment.

Funimation is claimed (and I believe this to be an absurdly low
number) to have a 40% market share of anime.

This means:

ONE LICENSE (*cough*Dragonball*cough* -- though it would be worse if
it were Afro Samurai) has 18% of the entire US anime industry.

25% of the entire US anime industry is one company with three
licensors (probably Toei, Bones, and whoever makes Dragonball).

(And that's if Funi has only a 40% market share, and not a much higher
one...)

(By the by, on the same page, they make a statement about piracy and
illegal downloading...)

As I said, the numbers are out there, and you ADMIT TO IGNORING THEM.

You want this industry to die.
        Instead, you use the RIAA/MPAA tired, old, incredibly stupid "logic"
that one download = lost sale. With no more justification than they
have. Which is basically zero.
Then there is NO EXPECTATION OF SALE.

EVER.

You don't get this very simple fact: Without the means to absolutely
control access, if an illegal download does not equal a sale, the
entire concept of "sale" _DIES_.

And the anime industry continues to disintegrate as a result.

Mike
Rob Kelk
2009-07-08 19:39:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nobody
Hello Mike,
"The numbers are out there." I'm sincerely interested in seeing these facts
and figures. However, I'm right in the middle of searching for new
employment and don't have a lot of time to invest in anime. If you or
somebody you know/trust has summarized said facts and figures to one short
report, I'd like to see it posted in the NG.
So would I. That's why I asked him a year ago to post those numbers; I'm
still waiting.

My advice: Don't hold your breath.
--
Rob Kelk Personal address (ROT-13): eboxryx -ng- tznvy -qbg- pbz
"Aggresive killfiling. I highly recommend it. It isn't personal;
there's just a limited number of hours in the day."
- Russ Allbery (<http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>), in message
<***@windlord.stanford.edu>
Starcade
2009-07-09 06:36:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rob Kelk
Post by Nobody
Hello Mike,
"The numbers are out there."  I'm sincerely interested in seeing these facts
and figures. However, I'm right in the middle of searching for new
employment and don't have a lot of time to invest in anime. If you or
somebody you know/trust has summarized said facts and figures to one short
report, I'd like to see it posted in the NG.
So would I. That's why I asked him a year ago to post those numbers; I'm
still waiting.
My advice: Don't hold your breath.
I have been all along -- but I gave Bill three to start, and they're
on the newsgroup, in direct reply to the post he made.

Mike (who fully expected, even though I've been posting the numbers
and their sources for a long time, that exact response -- just a
question of which thieving fucktard was going to do it.
Congratulations.)
Rob Kelk
2009-07-09 11:22:59 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 8 Jul 2009 23:36:33 -0700 (PDT), Starcade
Post by Starcade
Post by Rob Kelk
Post by Nobody
Hello Mike,
"The numbers are out there." =A0I'm sincerely interested in seeing these=
facts
Post by Rob Kelk
Post by Nobody
and figures. However, I'm right in the middle of searching for new
employment and don't have a lot of time to invest in anime. If you or
somebody you know/trust has summarized said facts and figures to one short
report, I'd like to see it posted in the NG.
So would I. That's why I asked him a year ago to post those numbers; I'm
still waiting.
My advice: Don't hold your breath.
I have been all along -- but I gave Bill three to start, and they're
on the newsgroup, in direct reply to the post he made.
You've posted links to numbers about music. To the best of my knowledge,
you have not yet posted numbers about anime. (If you have, post the
Message-ID of the post where you did so.)
Post by Starcade
Mike (who fully expected, even though I've been posting the numbers
and their sources for a long time, that exact response -- just a
question of which thieving fucktard was going to do it.
Congratulations.)
I strongly suggest you either prove or retract that statement about me.
--
Rob Kelk Personal address (ROT-13): eboxryx -ng- tznvy -qbg- pbz
"Aggresive killfiling. I highly recommend it. It isn't personal;
there's just a limited number of hours in the day."
- Russ Allbery (<http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>), in message
<***@windlord.stanford.edu>
Starcade
2009-07-10 01:09:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rob Kelk
You've posted links to numbers about music. To the best of my knowledge,
you have not yet posted numbers about anime. (If you have, post the
Message-ID of the post where you did so.)
Bullshit and you know it. But, like Sea Wasp, you choose to blatantly
ignore the numbers because they don't serve your "FREE ANIME!" fetish.
Post by Rob Kelk
Post by Starcade
Mike (who fully expected, even though I've been posting the numbers
and their sources for a long time, that exact response -- just a
question of which thieving fucktard was going to do it.
Congratulations.)
I strongly suggest you either prove or retract that statement about me.
You being a thieving fucktard? What are you going to do otherwise??

You act like one all over this newsgroup with your useless pro-
fansubbery tripe.

Mike
Rob Kelk
2009-07-10 01:22:29 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 9 Jul 2009 18:09:46 -0700 (PDT), Starcade
Post by Starcade
Post by Rob Kelk
You've posted links to numbers about music. To the best of my knowledge,
you have not yet posted numbers about anime. (If you have, post the
Message-ID of the post where you did so.)
Bullshit and you know it. But, like Sea Wasp, you choose to blatantly
ignore the numbers because they don't serve your "FREE ANIME!" fetish.
Since you either can't or won't quote yourself, I'll take that as you
not having posted numbers about anime, then.
Post by Starcade
Post by Rob Kelk
Post by Starcade
Mike (who fully expected, even though I've been posting the numbers
and their sources for a long time, that exact response -- just a
question of which thieving fucktard was going to do it.
Congratulations.)
I strongly suggest you either prove or retract that statement about me.
You being a thieving fucktard? What are you going to do otherwise??
You don't believe anything I post, so ask somebody else about May-July
2006.
Post by Starcade
You act like one all over this newsgroup with your useless pro-
fansubbery tripe.
What "pro-fansubbery tripe"? Quote a posting, please.

Again, either prove or retract your statement about me.
--
Rob Kelk
Personal address, in ROT-13: eboxryx -ng- tznvy -qbg- pbz
Starcade
2009-07-10 06:58:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rob Kelk
On Thu, 9 Jul 2009 18:09:46 -0700 (PDT), Starcade
Post by Rob Kelk
You've posted links to numbers about music. To the best of my knowledge,
you have not yet posted numbers about anime. (If you have, post the
Message-ID of the post where you did so.)
Bullshit and you know it.  But, like Sea Wasp, you choose to blatantly
ignore the numbers because they don't serve your "FREE ANIME!" fetish.
Since you either can't or won't quote yourself, I'll take that as you
not having posted numbers about anime, then.
You're also a lying one too, I see. I posted them earlier in the
fucking thread so you could _read some of them_.

I even added sources for your small mind to wrap around.

But you continually CHOOSE TO IGNORE THEM, at your own peril.
Post by Rob Kelk
Post by Rob Kelk
Post by Starcade
Mike (who fully expected, even though I've been posting the numbers
and their sources for a long time, that exact response -- just a
question of which thieving fucktard was going to do it.
Congratulations.)
I strongly suggest you either prove or retract that statement about me.
You being a thieving fucktard?  What are you going to do otherwise??
You don't believe anything I post, so ask somebody else about May-July
2006.
Unless you are planning to have me sued or arrested, I could care
less.

I don't believe what you post because you have an agenda, like most
anime fans, to destroy this fucking art form.
Post by Rob Kelk
You act like one all over this newsgroup with your useless pro-
fansubbery tripe.
What "pro-fansubbery tripe"? Quote a posting, please.
Again, either prove or retract your statement about me.
Your position proves it for me! You post this stuff to refute my
position, and that, alone, is pro-fansubbery tripe.

Mike
Captain Nerd
2009-07-10 12:48:43 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by Starcade
Post by Rob Kelk
On Thu, 9 Jul 2009 18:09:46 -0700 (PDT), Starcade
Post by Starcade
You act like one all over this newsgroup with your useless pro-
fansubbery tripe.
What "pro-fansubbery tripe"? Quote a posting, please.
Again, either prove or retract your statement about me.
Your position proves it for me! You post this stuff to refute my
position, and that, alone, is pro-fansubbery tripe.
You are an idiot.

Cap.
--
Since 1989, recycling old jokes, cliches, and bad puns, one Usenet
post at a time!
Operation: Nerdwatch http://www.nerdwatch.com
Only email with "TO_CAP" somewhere in the subject has a chance of being read
Rob Kelk
2009-07-10 13:11:42 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 9 Jul 2009 23:58:03 -0700 (PDT), Starcade
Post by Starcade
Post by Rob Kelk
On Thu, 9 Jul 2009 18:09:46 -0700 (PDT), Starcade
You've posted links to numbers about music. To the best of my knowledg=
e,
Post by Rob Kelk
you have not yet posted numbers about anime. (If you have, post the
Message-ID of the post where you did so.)
Bullshit and you know it. =A0But, like Sea Wasp, you choose to blatantly
ignore the numbers because they don't serve your "FREE ANIME!" fetish.
Since you either can't or won't quote yourself, I'll take that as you
not having posted numbers about anime, then.
You're also a lying one too, I see. I posted them earlier in the
fucking thread so you could _read some of them_.
You seem to be under the delusion that I have either the time or the
desire to read everything in this newsgroup. I don't.
Post by Starcade
I even added sources for your small mind to wrap around.
But you continually CHOOSE TO IGNORE THEM, at your own peril.
I am not ignoring them. I am asking, yet again, for you to point to them
so that I *can* read them.

For the third and final time: Provide a Message-ID.
Post by Starcade
Post by Rob Kelk
Post by Starcade
Mike (who fully expected, even though I've been posting the numbers
and their sources for a long time, that exact response -- just a
question of which thieving fucktard was going to do it.
Congratulations.)
I strongly suggest you either prove or retract that statement about me=
.
Post by Rob Kelk
You being a thieving fucktard? =A0What are you going to do otherwise??
You don't believe anything I post, so ask somebody else about May-July
2006.
Unless you are planning to have me sued or arrested, I could care
less.
Since you have refused twice to prove your claim that I am a thief, I
must assume you have no such proof.
Post by Starcade
I don't believe what you post because you have an agenda, like most
anime fans, to destroy this fucking art form.
The "fucking art form"? What does hentai have to do with what we're
discussing?
Post by Starcade
Post by Rob Kelk
You act like one all over this newsgroup with your useless pro-
fansubbery tripe.
What "pro-fansubbery tripe"? Quote a posting, please.
Again, either prove or retract your statement about me.
Your position proves it for me! You post this stuff to refute my
position, and that, alone, is pro-fansubbery tripe.
Ah. You're claiming that my asking you to offer evidence is somehow a
refutation of whatever evidence you refuse to provide. I believe that is
sufficient to remove any credibility someone who reads this thead might
have thought you had. There is now no need for me to take any further
action; you've just done what needed to be done to protect my reputation
and security clearance.


I'll finish off with three quotations (not counting the one in my
signature), intended for consideration by everyone else reading this
thread:

"You are never dedicated to do something you have complete confidence
in. No one is fanatically shouting that the sun is going to rise
tomorrow. They know it's going to rise tomorrow. When people are
fanatically dedicated to political or religious faiths or any other kind
of dogmas or goals, it's always because these dogmas or goals are in
doubt."
- Robert M. Pirsig, "Zen & The Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"

"Arguing with anonymous strangers on the Internet is a sucker's game
because they almost always turn out to be - or to be indistinguishable
from - self-righteous sixteen-year olds possessing infinite amounts of
free time."
- Neal Stephenson, "Cryptonomicon"

"They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the
Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown."
- Carl Sagan, "Brocas's Brain"
--
Rob Kelk Personal address (ROT-13): eboxryx -ng- tznvy -qbg- pbz
"Aggresive killfiling. I highly recommend it. It isn't personal;
there's just a limited number of hours in the day."
- Russ Allbery (<http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>), in message
<***@windlord.stanford.edu>
Starcade
2009-07-09 06:15:50 UTC
Permalink
One short report? Not all the numbers are in one short report. These
numbers have been compiled over the course of numerous reports over
the course of almost two years.

Let me start you with a set of numbers which was posted in Bandai
Visual USA's blog (which, like BVUSA, no longer exists -- and, of
course, this pro-thievery/fansub newsgroup will deny its existence) in
late-2007, sourced from an animeanime (JP industry) site survey on why
marketing to the United States market was useless.

With the yen at about 105 to the dollar at the time:

Cost of licensing one episode of anime: $30-33K

The cost of dub/ADR work for one episode was estimated, in the survey,
at about half of what the Japanese require to actually create it in
the first place, which comes (at that time) to between $45-85K an
episode.

Add about 10% for the strengthening of the dollar, and you come,
fairly quickly, to that a 13-episode anime in America is, at barest
minimum, a million-dollar operation.

If you took the new box-set mentality, and gave an example price of
$40/13 episode box (knowing that the company gets about half of that),
it would take about 50K sales to recoup the million dollars I speak
of. How many titles in anime get those kind of sales?

-----

Another number of significant contention that I have used comes from
at least two independent surveys, one of which was done through the
Tokyo Anime Center's Masakazu Kubo (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/
news/2008-02-04/shogakukans-masakazu-kubo-offers-proposal-on-fansubs).

I quote:

"Because "Fansubs" are works, such as television animation, on which
fans have added subtitles, they are usually made without
authorization. Currently, 6 million copies of illegal, English-
subtitled Japanese animated videos are said to be downloaded from
BitTorrent each week (http://animeanime.jp/biz/archives/2007/12/
bittorrent600.html). This has affected the DVD sales of Japanese
animation in North America, which have dropped dramatically. As a
result, the overseas prices for animation programs have fallen
considerably. After the April 2008 television program schedules [in
Japan] are laid out (*2), the drop in the number of animated programs
will be clearly seen. In short, the Japanese animation business has
fallen into a great crisis."

IGN provides a second source to this number, in a different survey:

"Last year, Central Park Media's John O'Donnell hired the online
metrics firm Media Defender to survey the online traffic in illegal
anime downloads. Media Defender's data suggested that there are six
million anime downloads per week via BitTorrent."

(http://anime.ign.com/articles/850/850521p1.html)

(And another survey suggests that's American downloaders only.)

The significance of this number is as follows...

If you take the new box-set mentality and affix a price of $40 for 13
episodes:

The entire US anime industry, estimated by IcV2 at $275-300 million in
2007 (no 2008 figures were published by the same magazine, though we
know the decline 2005 -> 2007 was almost 40% -- 2007 figures and
percentage comparison at http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/12068.html),
would have been stolen by just the BitTorrent downloaders at least
twice over (if not three times) in this survey.

Sales have continued to slide since, so that multiplier is probably
far more serious now.

---

As I said above, this is not one simple report. This is a number of
different sources coming together, which the pro-fansub community on
this newsgroup (which basically _IS_ most of this newsgroup) refuses
to address, refute, or even recognize.

I'll respond to the absolutely predictable language which your request
of me has been given separately.

Mike
Gerardo Campos
2009-07-09 14:39:52 UTC
Permalink
Starcade <***@gmail.com> wrote on Thu 09 Jul 2009 01:15:50a:

Let's do the math, just for fun :)
Post by Starcade
Let me start you with a set of numbers which was posted in Bandai
Visual USA's blog (which, like BVUSA, no longer exists -- and, of
course, this pro-thievery/fansub newsgroup will deny its existence) in
late-2007, sourced from an animeanime (JP industry) site survey on why
marketing to the United States market was useless.
OK
Post by Starcade
Cost of licensing one episode of anime: $30-33K
OK, lets use $32K for our calculations, so to license 13 episodes will
cost $416K
Post by Starcade
The cost of dub/ADR work for one episode was estimated, in the survey,
at about half of what the Japanese require to actually create it in
the first place, which comes (at that time) to between $45-85K an
episode.
Rather expensive for 24 minutes, but, lets use $65K, so the dubbing will
cost $845K. (around $2700 per minute o_O)
Post by Starcade
Add about 10% for the strengthening of the dollar, and you come,
fairly quickly, to that a 13-episode anime in America is, at barest
minimum, a million-dollar operation.
Irrelevant, since the license was already paid above at a rate of 105
JPY/USD.
Post by Starcade
If you took the new box-set mentality, and gave an example price of
$40/13 episode box (knowing that the company gets about half of that),
it would take about 50K sales to recoup the million dollars I speak
of. How many titles in anime get those kind of sales?
You started with 2007 cost prices, and now you have 2009 sale prices. In
2007 the box sets that I bought were around the USD$70-$80 range.

Also, you neglected the distribution costs, and the cost of the disk and
case, but lets absorb that cost in the ADR/Dub estimate, since I think it
is high.

13 Episodes cost is $416K + $845K = $1,261K

To recover at 2007 sale prices, 15,762 boxes @ $80 each, need to be sold
To recover at 2009 sale prices, 31,525 bozes @ $40 each, need to be sold

So let's estimate, 10,000 sold each year, and adjusting the sale price
accordingly.

2007: 10,000 boxes @ 80 ea. = $800,000
2008: 10,000 boxes @ 60 ea. = $600,000
2009: 10,000 boxes @ 40 ea. = $400,000

Total will be: $1,800,000 a 539K profit for one single title, with a modest
level of sales.

From where I bought my anime:
Best Buy has over 1000 stores.
Fry's has 34 stores.
Media Play 72 (while it existed)
Barnes & Noble 800 stores
Borders 500
Indigo (not sure how many stores are in Canada)
Mr. CD 10 stores in Mexico
Mixup 66 stores in Mexico

So that's at least 2500 retailers that I am aware, that can very well sell
a very low number of 4 boxsets per year, which will be the 10,000 boxsets
required to meet above estimate, not counting Amazon, Mom & Pops, exports
to other countries, licenses to iTunes and DVD rentals and any other
music/movie retailer that I may have not visited. So the 10,000 sale figure
is easily achievable.
--
Saludos
Gerardo Campos
Antonio E. Gonzalez
2009-07-09 17:18:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gerardo Campos
Let's do the math, just for fun :)
Post by Starcade
Let me start you with a set of numbers which was posted in Bandai
Visual USA's blog (which, like BVUSA, no longer exists -- and, of
course, this pro-thievery/fansub newsgroup will deny its existence) in
late-2007, sourced from an animeanime (JP industry) site survey on why
marketing to the United States market was useless.
OK
Post by Starcade
Cost of licensing one episode of anime: $30-33K
OK, lets use $32K for our calculations, so to license 13 episodes will
cost $416K
Post by Starcade
The cost of dub/ADR work for one episode was estimated, in the survey,
at about half of what the Japanese require to actually create it in
the first place, which comes (at that time) to between $45-85K an
episode.
Rather expensive for 24 minutes, but, lets use $65K, so the dubbing will
cost $845K. (around $2700 per minute o_O)
Post by Starcade
Add about 10% for the strengthening of the dollar, and you come,
fairly quickly, to that a 13-episode anime in America is, at barest
minimum, a million-dollar operation.
Irrelevant, since the license was already paid above at a rate of 105
JPY/USD.
Post by Starcade
If you took the new box-set mentality, and gave an example price of
$40/13 episode box (knowing that the company gets about half of that),
it would take about 50K sales to recoup the million dollars I speak
of. How many titles in anime get those kind of sales?
You started with 2007 cost prices, and now you have 2009 sale prices. In
2007 the box sets that I bought were around the USD$70-$80 range.
Also, you neglected the distribution costs, and the cost of the disk and
case, but lets absorb that cost in the ADR/Dub estimate, since I think it
is high.
13 Episodes cost is $416K + $845K = $1,261K
So let's estimate, 10,000 sold each year, and adjusting the sale price
accordingly.
Total will be: $1,800,000 a 539K profit for one single title, with a modest
level of sales.
Best Buy has over 1000 stores.
Fry's has 34 stores.
Media Play 72 (while it existed)
Barnes & Noble 800 stores
Borders 500
Indigo (not sure how many stores are in Canada)
Mr. CD 10 stores in Mexico
Mixup 66 stores in Mexico
So that's at least 2500 retailers that I am aware, that can very well sell
a very low number of 4 boxsets per year, which will be the 10,000 boxsets
required to meet above estimate, not counting Amazon, Mom & Pops, exports
to other countries, licenses to iTunes and DVD rentals and any other
music/movie retailer that I may have not visited. So the 10,000 sale figure
is easily achievable.
Don't forget licensing for TV broadcast; and this *still* does not
include the money made from licensing/revenues by way of internet
broadcasts, be they YouTube, Hulu, Joost, or Crunchyroll, among others



--

- ReFlex76
Bobby Clark
2009-07-09 19:05:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gerardo Campos
Let's do the math, just for fun :)
Post by Starcade
Let me start you with a set of numbers which was posted in Bandai
Visual USA's blog (which, like BVUSA, no longer exists -- and, of
course, this pro-thievery/fansub newsgroup will deny its existence) in
late-2007, sourced from an animeanime (JP industry) site survey on why
marketing to the United States market was useless.
OK
Post by Starcade
Cost of licensing one episode of anime: $30-33K
OK, lets use $32K for our calculations, so to license 13 episodes will
cost $416K
ADV has commented that they buy the rights to some series for as little as
$30K for the 24 episodes. So while one hot show might cost 30K an episode a
ho hum show can be almost nothing. When ADV follows the buy it all for a
cash payment of $30K they making a killing even with a low sales volume.
Post by Gerardo Campos
Post by Starcade
The cost of dub/ADR work for one episode was estimated, in the survey,
at about half of what the Japanese require to actually create it in
the first place, which comes (at that time) to between $45-85K an
episode.
Rather expensive for 24 minutes, but, lets use $65K, so the dubbing will
cost $845K. (around $2700 per minute o_O)
I think this is very high. I think you can get that figure down to less
than $100K for a whole show. There are only a few people involved wtih each
episode. Voice acting is not typicaly a six figure income. Many of the
people who work for Funimation and ADV do other things on the side. Even
full time producers are not six figures in this industry.
Post by Gerardo Campos
Post by Starcade
Add about 10% for the strengthening of the dollar, and you come,
fairly quickly, to that a 13-episode anime in America is, at barest
minimum, a million-dollar operation.
Irrelevant, since the license was already paid above at a rate of 105
JPY/USD.
Post by Starcade
If you took the new box-set mentality, and gave an example price of
$40/13 episode box (knowing that the company gets about half of that),
it would take about 50K sales to recoup the million dollars I speak
of. How many titles in anime get those kind of sales?
You started with 2007 cost prices, and now you have 2009 sale prices. In
2007 the box sets that I bought were around the USD$70-$80 range.
When we first started buying box sets in 2003 they were over $100 each on
sale. I think the popularity of anime has made a box set at $50.00 a winner
for most of the US companies. The market sure has changed that price point.
Post by Gerardo Campos
Also, you neglected the distribution costs, and the cost of the disk and
case, but lets absorb that cost in the ADR/Dub estimate, since I think it
is high.
13 Episodes cost is $416K + $845K = $1,261K
So let's estimate, 10,000 sold each year, and adjusting the sale price
accordingly.
Total will be: $1,800,000 a 539K profit for one single title, with a modest
level of sales.
Best Buy has over 1000 stores.
One of the best store selections.
Post by Gerardo Campos
Fry's has 34 stores.
Great store to buy anime at.
Post by Gerardo Campos
Media Play 72 (while it existed)
Barnes & Noble 800 stores
Most B & Nobles do not carry anime DVDs in the stores.

Add in FYE. Most of those have a good selection avalable.
Post by Gerardo Campos
Borders 500
Less in the stores around North Texas.
Post by Gerardo Campos
Indigo (not sure how many stores are in Canada)
Mr. CD 10 stores in Mexico
Mixup 66 stores in Mexico
So that's at least 2500 retailers that I am aware, that can very well sell
a very low number of 4 boxsets per year, which will be the 10,000 boxsets
required to meet above estimate, not counting Amazon, Mom & Pops, exports
to other countries, licenses to iTunes and DVD rentals and any other
music/movie retailer that I may have not visited. So the 10,000 sale figure
is easily achievable.
With ADV's model 10,000 can make a handy profit.

Bobby
Post by Gerardo Campos
--
Saludos
Gerardo Campos
Starcade
2009-07-09 19:55:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bobby Clark
ADV has commented that they buy the rights to some series for as little as
$30K for the 24 episodes.  So while one hot show might cost 30K an episode a
ho hum show can be almost nothing.  When ADV follows the buy it all for a
cash payment of $30K they making a killing even with a low sales volume.
The benefits of being a vulture.

I would presume that (given the numbers from the Japanese end from
late-2007) that the titles you speak of are literally BK prices (as in
_bankruptcy_ prices).

Most of those titles wouldn't even need that much of an ADR budget, or
much else.

But how does that allow the industry to go forward? This can only be
true for a finite number of license rescues, though you have pretty
cleanly given Sentai's vision going forward.
Post by Bobby Clark
Post by Gerardo Campos
Post by Starcade
The cost of dub/ADR work for one episode was estimated, in the survey,
at about half of what the Japanese require to actually create it in
the first place, which comes (at that time) to between $45-85K an
episode.
Rather expensive for 24 minutes, but, lets use $65K, so the dubbing will
cost $845K.   (around $2700 per minute o_O)
I think this is very high.  I think you can get that figure down to less
than $100K for a whole show.  There are only a few people involved wtih each
episode.  Voice acting is not typicaly a six figure income.  Many of the
people who work for Funimation and ADV do other things on the side.  Even
full time producers are not six figures in this industry.
So you are, then, claiming that the numbers are a lie. OK, take that
up with the Japanese who made the survey about 18 months ago.

But understand that you then MUST conclude that the entire US anime
industry (the pricing, the marketing, the whole shebang) would be a
fraud perpetrated on you.

(You are, of course, also forgetting the physical costs of dubbing and
ADR work in your discussion here -- the studios, the machinery, the
tapes, etc. and so forth and so on...)
Post by Bobby Clark
When we first started buying box sets in 2003 they were over $100 each on
sale.  I think the popularity of anime has made a box set at $50.00 a winner
for most of the US companies.  The market sure has changed that price point.
The price point is a direct statement of how much money has to be
charged to recoup costs and make a profit.

This is why I had no argument with BVUSA's Japanese-level price
points. They believed (and correctly!) that very few anime fans
actually ever buy product, so they had to adjust their price points
accordingly!

Here's something a lot of people don't get:

A price point, because it is a direct statement of how much money has
to be charged to recoup costs and make a profit, can basically be
determined by the following formula:

Price Point = (Costs + accepted profit) + Store Overhead / Number of
expected sales

The higher that denominator number is, the lower the price point.

But if they miss that denominator number, they operate at a loss.
Post by Bobby Clark
Post by Gerardo Campos
Best Buy has over 1000 stores.
One of the best store selections.
Which we now know has a significant portion of the anime industry in
the US. (And we also know has seen many of its stores liquidate much
of their anime selection.)
Post by Bobby Clark
Post by Gerardo Campos
Fry's has 34 stores.
Great store to buy anime at.
If you live near one.
Post by Bobby Clark
Post by Gerardo Campos
Media Play 72 (while it existed)
Barnes & Noble 800 stores
Most B & Nobles do not carry anime DVDs in the stores.
I didn't think so, because I rarely, if ever, saw any there.
Post by Bobby Clark
Add in FYE.  Most of those have a good selection avalable.
If you can find those. Most of the FYE's where I used to live are
long gone.
Post by Bobby Clark
Post by Gerardo Campos
Borders 500
Less in the stores around North Texas.
And the amount of anime in them has probably decreased as well.

Manga, OTOH...
Post by Bobby Clark
Post by Gerardo Campos
Indigo (not sure how many stores are in Canada)
Mr. CD 10 stores in Mexico
Mixup 66 stores in Mexico
So that's at least 2500 retailers that I am aware, that can very well sell
a very low number of 4 boxsets per year, which will be the 10,000 boxsets
required to meet above estimate, not counting Amazon, Mom & Pops, exports
to other countries, licenses to iTunes and DVD rentals and any other
music/movie retailer that I may have not visited. So the 10,000 sale figure
is easily achievable.
With ADV's model 10,000 can make a handy profit.
The problem is two-fold:

1) Gerardo is not only assuming 10,000 copies of any given anime, but
10,000 copies of any given anime _per year_ -- see his post for
details. That's where his argument completely falls apart.

2) How many titles even sell 10,000 copies to begin with?

Mike
Bobby Clark
2009-07-09 21:14:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Starcade
Post by Bobby Clark
ADV has commented that they buy the rights to some series for as little as
$30K for the 24 episodes. So while one hot show might cost 30K an episode
a
ho hum show can be almost nothing. When ADV follows the buy it all for a
cash payment of $30K they making a killing even with a low sales volume.
The benefits of being a vulture.
I would presume that (given the numbers from the Japanese end from
late-2007) that the titles you speak of are literally BK prices (as in
_bankruptcy_ prices).
Most of those titles wouldn't even need that much of an ADR budget, or
much else.
But how does that allow the industry to go forward? This can only be
true for a finite number of license rescues, though you have pretty
cleanly given Sentai's vision going forward.
I think Sentai Filmworks vision is a fine one. I love the lower cost DVD
with all of the episodes rolled out in one or two releases. I do like
English dubs, but Sentai got the shows out very fast and complete in just
one or two releases. If they can make money and keep the product rolling
like this, I will buy it.
Post by Starcade
Post by Bobby Clark
Post by Gerardo Campos
Post by Starcade
The cost of dub/ADR work for one episode was estimated, in the survey,
Post by Starcade
at about half of what the Japanese require to actually create it in
the first place, which comes (at that time) to between $45-85K an
episode.
Rather expensive for 24 minutes, but, lets use $65K, so the dubbing will
cost $845K. (around $2700 per minute o_O)
I think this is very high. I think you can get that figure down to less
than $100K for a whole show. There are only a few people involved wtih
each
episode. Voice acting is not typicaly a six figure income. Many of the
people who work for Funimation and ADV do other things on the side. Even
full time producers are not six figures in this industry.
So you are, then, claiming that the numbers are a lie. OK, take that
up with the Japanese who made the survey about 18 months ago.
No, I know some shows are very costly. I also know that some are very low
cost. It is not in the best interest of a Japanese company to tell people
they sold the rights to Eva for a song and the North American producer who
has it made and makes a killing on it every year. I think they give
investor colored views of the money they make on a show. Look how good X
did by getting $32K an episode vs. Look who got paid today because we sold
all of it for $32K to keep the doors open this week.
Post by Starcade
But understand that you then MUST conclude that the entire US anime
industry (the pricing, the marketing, the whole shebang) would be a
fraud perpetrated on you.
I do think some of the companys have taken us to the cleaners over the
years.
Post by Starcade
Post by Bobby Clark
(You are, of course, also forgetting the physical costs of dubbing and
ADR work in your discussion here -- the studios, the machinery, the
tapes, etc. and so forth and so on...)
That cost can be very low now. Most if not all ADR work is done on a
computer. The last Funimation master I saw in person was a burned DVD.
Post by Starcade
Post by Bobby Clark
Post by Gerardo Campos
When we first started buying box sets in 2003 they were over $100 each on
sale. I think the popularity of anime has made a box set at $50.00 a
winner
for most of the US companies. The market sure has changed that price
point.
The price point is a direct statement of how much money has to be
charged to recoup costs and make a profit.
This is why I had no argument with BVUSA's Japanese-level price
points. They believed (and correctly!) that very few anime fans
actually ever buy product, so they had to adjust their price points
accordingly!
And I voted with my cash not to pay those prices for a non Japanese DVD. I
did it with them, I did it with Geneon and I do it with Funimation now.
Post by Starcade
Post by Bobby Clark
A price point, because it is a direct statement of how much money has
to be charged to recoup costs and make a profit, can basically be
Price Point = (Costs + accepted profit) + Store Overhead / Number of
expected sales
The higher that denominator number is, the lower the price point.
But if they miss that denominator number, they operate at a loss.
Price points are normaly set as high as the market will support. If I want
a new SS Camaro today, I will pay more than list. If I buy the car next
year, I will pay less than list. Right now Chevy can get it. Next year I
will be able to find the same car for less. Demand and avalablity is
setting the price point over what GM thinks the car should sell for. The
same holds true for Anime. Have you noticed that manga prices in the US are
down by one to two dollors an issue?
Post by Starcade
Post by Bobby Clark
Post by Gerardo Campos
Best Buy has over 1000 stores.
One of the best store selections.
Which we now know has a significant portion of the anime industry in
the US. (And we also know has seen many of its stores liquidate much
of their anime selection.)
Post by Gerardo Campos
Fry's has 34 stores.
Great store to buy anime at.
If you live near one.
True we now have 4 of them here in North Texas. I can drive to all of them
in just the span of an hour if I wanted. The 2 new ones are very grand.
There is even one with cows in it. Each store has 8 to 10 four foot
sections of area devoted to anime. The Best Buys, Sam Goods and FYEs all
complete to lower the prices.
Post by Starcade
Post by Bobby Clark
Post by Gerardo Campos
Media Play 72 (while it existed)
Barnes & Noble 800 stores
Most B & Nobles do not carry anime DVDs in the stores.
I didn't think so, because I rarely, if ever, saw any there.
Add in FYE. Most of those have a good selection avalable.
If you can find those. Most of the FYE's where I used to live are
long gone.
Post by Gerardo Campos
Borders 500
Less in the stores around North Texas.
And the amount of anime in them has probably decreased as well.
That is true.
Post by Starcade
Post by Bobby Clark
Manga, OTOH...
Most of the stores have much smaller Manga sections now.

Bobby
Starcade
2009-07-09 22:15:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Starcade
The benefits of being a vulture.
I would presume that (given the numbers from the Japanese end from
late-2007) that the titles you speak of are literally BK prices (as in
_bankruptcy_ prices).
Most of those titles wouldn't even need that much of an ADR budget, or
much else.
But how does that allow the industry to go forward?  This can only be
true for a finite number of license rescues, though you have pretty
cleanly given Sentai's vision going forward.
I think Sentai Filmworks vision is a fine one.  I love the lower cost DVD
with all of the episodes rolled out in one or two releases.  I do like
English dubs, but Sentai got the shows out very fast and complete in just
one or two releases.  If they can make money and keep the product rolling
like this, I will buy it.
Fuck them.

Fuck them in the ear for who they are and what they've already done.

You see, there's one real thing that you don't realize.

Sentai is basically just a front for an ADV Films which no longer
functionally exists (that "MOFC booth" at AX discussed elsewhere in
the newsgroup, probably the same thing...).

I mean, how bad did they essentially rip off and rape Sojitz? What
does Sojitz own now, and, if nothing, then who got the approximately
20% of the stake Sojitz got in ADV when Sojitz bought in?

How bad were they trying to rip off the television networks for TTGL
and Sgt. Frog?

They're getting as bad as the fansubbers, but against other forms of
the industry.

And the problem with their system is it only works sub-only (or at
least with no new dub), and mostly with titles already long-defunct.
No, I know some shows are very costly.  I also know that some are very low
cost.  It is not in the best interest of a Japanese company to tell people
they sold the rights to Eva for a song and the North American producer who
has it made and makes a killing on it every year.  I think they give
investor colored views of the money they make on a show.  Look how good X
did by getting $32K an episode vs. Look who got paid today because we sold
all of it for $32K to keep the doors open this week.
The latter is where the vultures at ADV are at this point. The
problem is that you still have the situation where a lot of these
anime producers in Japan may well need several hundred thousand
dollars just to complete _this project_.

There's a reason why the number of series spring 07 -> spring 09 has
halved.
Post by Starcade
But understand that you then MUST conclude that the entire US anime
industry (the pricing, the marketing, the whole shebang) would be a
fraud perpetrated on you.
I do think some of the companys have taken us to the cleaners over the
years.
Then they need to be gone, and adjudicated as such as well. You see,
this is the point I've been trying to tell you: I've given you the
numbers and what the people within the industry have said. It's
either that they are right and that the fansubbers have raped the
industry dry, or they've been lying and need to be put out in favor of
same.

(I think you can tell where most of this newsgroup has gone, in that
regard.)
Post by Starcade
Post by Starcade
(You are, of course, also forgetting the physical costs of dubbing and
ADR work in your discussion here -- the studios, the machinery, the
tapes, etc. and so forth and so on...)
That cost can be very low now.  Most if not all ADR work is done on a
computer.  The last Funimation master I saw in person was a burned DVD.
You still need to pay for the studio, you still need to pay to keep
the lights on to use the computer, etc. and so forth...
Post by Starcade
Post by Starcade
The price point is a direct statement of how much money has to be
charged to recoup costs and make a profit.
This is why I had no argument with BVUSA's Japanese-level price
points.  They believed (and correctly!) that very few anime fans
actually ever buy product, so they had to adjust their price points
accordingly!
And I voted with my cash not to pay those prices for a non Japanese DVD.  I
did it with them, I did it with Geneon and I do it with Funimation now.
As did I. BUT:

I have no argument with it if they believe the number of people who
WILL EVER BUY is so low, compared to the amount of the anime fanbase,
that the price point must be increased to cover costs.

Else, why license _anything_?
Post by Starcade
Post by Starcade
A price point, because it is a direct statement of how much money has
to be charged to recoup costs and make a profit, can basically be
Price Point = (Costs + accepted profit) + Store Overhead / Number of
expected sales
The higher that denominator number is, the lower the price point.
But if they miss that denominator number, they operate at a loss.
Price points are normaly set as high as the market will support.  If I want
Right, but that's a function of increasing that "accepted profit"
number above. What happens when you can't even cover the costs
because you overestimated the denominator of that fraction?
a new SS Camaro today, I will pay more than list.  If I buy the car next
year, I will pay less than list.  Right now Chevy can get it.  Next year I
will be able to find the same car for less.  Demand and avalablity is
setting the price point over what GM thinks the car should sell for.  The
same holds true for Anime.  Have you noticed that manga prices in the US are
down by one to two dollors an issue?
Probably partially due to that they are being stolen from too!
Post by Starcade
Post by Starcade
Post by Gerardo Campos
Best Buy has over 1000 stores.
One of the best store selections.
Which we now know has a significant portion of the anime industry in
the US.  (And we also know has seen many of its stores liquidate much
of their anime selection.)
Post by Gerardo Campos
Fry's has 34 stores.
Great store to buy anime at.
If you live near one.
True we now have 4 of them here in North Texas.  I can drive to all of them
in just the span of an hour if I wanted. The 2 new ones are very grand.
There is even one with cows in it.  Each store has 8 to 10  four foot
sections of area devoted to anime.  The Best Buys, Sam Goods and FYEs all
complete to lower the prices.
I think the one I visited when I used to live in the Bay Area, though,
didn't have that much anime at all, if any.

Mike
Gerardo Campos
2009-07-09 20:00:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bobby Clark
Post by Gerardo Campos
Let's do the math, just for fun :)
Post by Starcade
Let me start you with a set of numbers which was posted in Bandai
Visual USA's blog (which, like BVUSA, no longer exists -- and, of
course, this pro-thievery/fansub newsgroup will deny its existence)
in late-2007, sourced from an animeanime (JP industry) site survey
on why marketing to the United States market was useless.
OK
Post by Starcade
Cost of licensing one episode of anime: $30-33K
OK, lets use $32K for our calculations, so to license 13 episodes
will cost $416K
ADV has commented that they buy the rights to some series for as
little as $30K for the 24 episodes. So while one hot show might cost
30K an episode a ho hum show can be almost nothing. When ADV follows
the buy it all for a cash payment of $30K they making a killing even
with a low sales volume.
Right, if the show is not very popular, it makes sense to pay less for
the license.
Post by Bobby Clark
Post by Gerardo Campos
Post by Starcade
The cost of dub/ADR work for one episode was estimated, in the
survey, at about half of what the Japanese require to actually
create it in the first place, which comes (at that time) to between
$45-85K an episode.
Rather expensive for 24 minutes, but, lets use $65K, so the dubbing
will cost $845K. (around $2700 per minute o_O)
I think this is very high. I think you can get that figure down to
less than $100K for a whole show. There are only a few people
involved wtih each episode. Voice acting is not typicaly a six figure
income. Many of the people who work for Funimation and ADV do other
things on the side. Even full time producers are not six figures in
this industry.
Yes, that is my impression, but, I am just using the numbers provided by
Mike.
Post by Bobby Clark
Post by Gerardo Campos
Post by Starcade
Add about 10% for the strengthening of the dollar, and you come,
fairly quickly, to that a 13-episode anime in America is, at barest
minimum, a million-dollar operation.
Irrelevant, since the license was already paid above at a rate of 105
JPY/USD.
Post by Starcade
If you took the new box-set mentality, and gave an example price of
$40/13 episode box (knowing that the company gets about half of
that), it would take about 50K sales to recoup the million dollars I
speak of. How many titles in anime get those kind of sales?
You started with 2007 cost prices, and now you have 2009 sale prices.
In 2007 the box sets that I bought were around the USD$70-$80 range.
When we first started buying box sets in 2003 they were over $100 each
on sale. I think the popularity of anime has made a box set at $50.00
a winner for most of the US companies. The market sure has changed
that price point.
Yes, buying an anime DVD is expensive, but since must of the setup costs
have been recovered (studio, casting, equipment, press, distribution
channels, etc.), now should be cheaper to produce them, and that reflects
the price for the consumer.

<snip>
Post by Bobby Clark
With ADV's model 10,000 can make a handy profit.
Bobby
Yes, it is a profitable business.
--
Saludos
Gerardo Campos
Starcade
2009-07-09 20:07:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gerardo Campos
Right, if the show is not very popular, it makes sense to pay less for
the license.
If those providing the license allow that price.

Here's where the fact that a number of series needed American money to
be completed comes in. You seem to forget (probably conveniently)
that the licensing price is negotiated, but that the original owners
of the anime (the Japanese) have the final call. They could well have
a number that, because of the need for American money to complete the
series, they CAN NOT go under.
Post by Gerardo Campos
Yes, that is my impression, but, I am just using the numbers provided by
Mike.
Which were numbers provided to me by the blog and the survey in
question -- you'd probably have to go back to animeanime now to get
them, and back about 18 months at that.
Post by Gerardo Campos
Yes, buying an anime DVD is expensive, but since must of the setup costs
have been recovered (studio, casting, equipment, press, distribution
channels, etc.), now should be cheaper to produce them, and that reflects
the price for the consumer.
So you are basically throwing in the towel, then, on new titles!

(Frankly, so is most of the industry, at this rate...)

And you assume something that I'm not able to -- that those costs have
been recovered at all.

We've lost three of the six major companies from two years ago (and
several minors as well) because your assumption, in most cases, is not
the case.

Mike
Gerardo Campos
2009-07-09 21:08:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Starcade
Post by Gerardo Campos
Right, if the show is not very popular, it makes sense to pay less
for the license.
If those providing the license allow that price.
If there is no agreement, then do not get the license
Post by Starcade
Here's where the fact that a number of series needed American money to
be completed comes in. You seem to forget (probably conveniently)
that the licensing price is negotiated, but that the original owners
of the anime (the Japanese) have the final call. They could well have
a number that, because of the need for American money to complete the
series, they CAN NOT go under.
I have not forgotten the license price, I used the license prices that
you provided in the math calculations, in a previous post.
Post by Starcade
Post by Gerardo Campos
Yes, that is my impression, but, I am just using the numbers provided
by Mike.
Which were numbers provided to me by the blog and the survey in
question -- you'd probably have to go back to animeanime now to get
them, and back about 18 months at that.
Ah, so the numbers come from someone that publishes a blog and from some
unknown people that answered a survey, I though those numbers came from
real industry reports.
Post by Starcade
Post by Gerardo Campos
Yes, buying an anime DVD is expensive, but since must of the setup
costs have been recovered (studio, casting, equipment, press,
distribution channels, etc.), now should be cheaper to produce them,
and that reflects the price for the consumer.
So you are basically throwing in the towel, then, on new titles!
No, I keep buying titles, I recently bought:

The girl who leapt through time USD35.99 Dollars at Best Buy
Escaflowne (Jap, Eng dub/sub) USD$39.99 Dollars at Best Buy
Saint Seiya (Jap, Spa dub/sub) MXN$5,880 Pesos at Mr. CD.
Guyver (Jap, Eng dub/sub) USD$63.00 Dollars ar Barnes and Noble
Post by Starcade
(Frankly, so is most of the industry, at this rate...)
And you assume something that I'm not able to -- that those costs have
been recovered at all.
I said most of the costs, not all of them.
Post by Starcade
We've lost three of the six major companies from two years ago (and
several minors as well) because your assumption, in most cases, is not
the case.
Is a capitalist environment, all the companies are fighting to have the
largest market segment, part of the process makes some companies to
disappear.
--
Saludos
Gerardo Campos
Farix
2009-07-09 22:57:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gerardo Campos
Post by Starcade
Post by Gerardo Campos
Right, if the show is not very popular, it makes sense to pay less
for the license.
If those providing the license allow that price.
If there is no agreement, then do not get the license
Post by Starcade
Here's where the fact that a number of series needed American money to
be completed comes in. You seem to forget (probably conveniently)
that the licensing price is negotiated, but that the original owners
of the anime (the Japanese) have the final call. They could well have
a number that, because of the need for American money to complete the
series, they CAN NOT go under.
I have not forgotten the license price, I used the license prices that
you provided in the math calculations, in a previous post.
Post by Starcade
Post by Gerardo Campos
Yes, that is my impression, but, I am just using the numbers provided
by Mike.
Which were numbers provided to me by the blog and the survey in
question -- you'd probably have to go back to animeanime now to get
them, and back about 18 months at that.
Ah, so the numbers come from someone that publishes a blog and from some
unknown people that answered a survey, I though those numbers came from
real industry reports.
Post by Starcade
Post by Gerardo Campos
Yes, buying an anime DVD is expensive, but since must of the setup
costs have been recovered (studio, casting, equipment, press,
distribution channels, etc.), now should be cheaper to produce them,
and that reflects the price for the consumer.
So you are basically throwing in the towel, then, on new titles!
The girl who leapt through time USD35.99 Dollars at Best Buy
Escaflowne (Jap, Eng dub/sub) USD$39.99 Dollars at Best Buy
Saint Seiya (Jap, Spa dub/sub) MXN$5,880 Pesos at Mr. CD.
Guyver (Jap, Eng dub/sub) USD$63.00 Dollars ar Barnes and Noble
Post by Starcade
(Frankly, so is most of the industry, at this rate...)
And you assume something that I'm not able to -- that those costs have
been recovered at all.
I said most of the costs, not all of them.
Post by Starcade
We've lost three of the six major companies from two years ago (and
several minors as well) because your assumption, in most cases, is not
the case.
Is a capitalist environment, all the companies are fighting to have the
largest market segment, part of the process makes some companies to
disappear.
I would dispute that we've lost three "major" companies in the last two
years. Geneon is the only major company that we have lost during that
time, and that appears to be do to internal shenanigans, where the main
Japanese branch wasn't allowing them to compete and market effectively.
Central Park Media was already on a deathwatch since the bankruptcy of
MediaPlay, which owned the Suncoast and SamGoody franchises. Though
F.Y.E. bought up the remains of MediaPlay, it never really replace it.
As for Bandai Visual USA, it never was a major player to begin with. In
fact, it was perhaps the smallest player in the whole North American
market. But its failure was do to trying to treat the North American
market the same as the Japanese market with high priced, low episode
count DVDs that everyone but Mikey said was market suicide. But don't
confuse Bandai Visual USA with Bandai Entertainment, which is still very
much in the game.

As for the other anime companies, we still have Funimation, Viz Media,
ADV, Bandai Entertainment, Manga Entertainment, Media Blasters, and
RightStuf's Nozomi Entertainment. Of those seven, only ADV is known to
still be on shaky ground. We may still see a couple of companies go out
of business as the market continues to realign itself, but the market
will still continue to exist.

Farix
Starcade
2009-07-10 07:35:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Farix
I would dispute that we've lost three "major" companies in the last two
years. Geneon is the only major company that we have lost during that
time, and that appears to be do to internal shenanigans, where the main
Japanese branch wasn't allowing them to compete and market effectively.
You can't beat free -- that's why I can't blame Geneon Japan (or
Mitsubishi) for getting out of the North American market. Perhaps
they saved money by doing so first.

There were six major companies two years ago: Geneon USA (gone), ADV
(gone), BVUSA (gone), Funimation, Viz, and BEUSA.
Post by Farix
Central Park Media was already on a deathwatch since the bankruptcy of
MediaPlay, which owned the Suncoast and SamGoody franchises. Though
F.Y.E. bought up the remains of MediaPlay, it never really replace it.
CPM was never a "major" to begin with. It tried, certainly, but it
never even got to the levels where they could be taken that seriously
as a major player.
Post by Farix
As for Bandai Visual USA, it never was a major player to begin with. In
fact, it was perhaps the smallest player in the whole North American
market. But its failure was do to trying to treat the North American
market the same as the Japanese market with high priced, low episode
count DVDs that everyone but Mikey said was market suicide.
It's market suicide when the price point the meaningful market has set
is zero.

But if they wanted to be around, knowing most of you shitheads
wouldn't pay for a remote portion (if any!) of the anime you consume,
they had to do it. Was that popular? Of course not. But they never
would've made it past day one otherwise, because they knew one thing
that most of the rest failed to understand -- if you ain't paying, I
don't want you here.

That's why even their head said that there were only about a quarter
of a million anime fans in this country. With that estimate, sir, you
have to raise the prices, or you have no chance of making back your
investment, and it's suicide in the first place.
Post by Farix
But don't confuse Bandai Visual USA with Bandai Entertainment, which is still very
much in the game.
That is correct. How much longer, with all their cheaping out of
necessary things like replication, is anyone's guess, but the Death
Clock on them should've gone long past midnight already.
Post by Farix
As for the other anime companies, we still have Funimation, Viz Media,
ADV, Bandai Entertainment, Manga Entertainment, Media Blasters, and
RightStuf's Nozomi Entertainment. Of those seven, only ADV is known to
still be on shaky ground. We may still see a couple of companies go out
of business as the market continues to realign itself, but the market
will still continue to exist.
ADV is gone, long time ago gone. The front companies have replaced
them as vulture operations, but ADV is gone.

Viz doesn't even want to be part of the anime industry, but -- sorry
to them -- they are. In fact, they might have the closest marketing
model (about 3-4 viable titles, and not much else in the catalog at
all) to trying to make it through this.

Funimation, we'll see about... I'm still not convinced that they're
not going to take major further financial hits because of illegal
conduct by the fans (One Piece, Brotherhood, et. al.), which their
parent, Navarre, can still ill afford.

Bandai Entertainment, already addressed. Get a physically viable
product out there consistently, and you might come off the Death
Clock. They're probably next to go.

The others are minors (Nozomi basically being held up by the
warehousing/wholesale arm of TRSI, Media Blasters more a niche/hentai
label, and I didn't even know Manga Entertainment was still in
existence...).

Mike
Starcade
2009-07-10 07:16:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gerardo Campos
Post by Starcade
Post by Gerardo Campos
Right, if the show is not very popular, it makes sense to pay less
for the license.
If those providing the license allow that price.
If there is no agreement, then do not get the license
But the point I'm making is that there is a level, Gerardo, under
which the Japanese won't (or can't) go.
Post by Gerardo Campos
Post by Starcade
Here's where the fact that a number of series needed American money to
be completed comes in.   You seem to forget (probably conveniently)
that the licensing price is negotiated, but that the original owners
of the anime (the Japanese) have the final call.  They could well have
a number that, because of the need for American money to complete the
series, they CAN NOT go under.
I have not forgotten the license price, I used the license prices that
you provided in the math calculations, in a previous post.
Not the point I was making. The point I was making (which I do
believe you missed) was that the license price is not as malleable as
one might hope. This was the goal of Gen Fukunaga's taking over of
the North American Anime Industry strategy: To basically become the
sole source/licensor, and then HE would have the upper hand in
determining licensing values.

This is never true until there is either only one source left of
Americanization, and even then it might not always be true.
Post by Gerardo Campos
Post by Starcade
Post by Gerardo Campos
Yes, that is my impression, but, I am just using the numbers provided
by Mike.
Which were numbers provided to me by the blog and the survey in
question -- you'd probably have to go back to animeanime now to get
them, and back about 18 months at that.
Ah, so the numbers come from someone that publishes a blog and from some
unknown people that answered a survey, I though those numbers came from
real industry reports.
It was an industry survey done for animeanime in Japan. About 18
months or so ago.

It was posted to the old BVUSA blog while it existed. I do believe I
posted links to it, but that part of the blog went away with BVUSA.
Post by Gerardo Campos
Post by Starcade
Post by Gerardo Campos
Yes, buying an anime DVD is expensive, but since must of the setup
costs have been recovered (studio, casting, equipment, press,
distribution channels, etc.), now should be cheaper to produce them,
and that reflects the price for the consumer.
So you are basically throwing in the towel, then, on new titles!
I was more talking about the general price recovery which new titles
would seem to imply.
Post by Gerardo Campos
The girl who leapt through time USD35.99 Dollars at Best Buy
Escaflowne (Jap, Eng dub/sub)  USD$39.99 Dollars at Best Buy
Saint Seiya (Jap, Spa dub/sub) MXN$5,880 Pesos at Mr. CD.
Guyver  (Jap, Eng dub/sub)     USD$63.00 Dollars ar Barnes and Noble
And how many fansubs have you downloaded in same timeframe?
Post by Gerardo Campos
Post by Starcade
(Frankly, so is most of the industry, at this rate...)
And you assume something that I'm not able to -- that those costs have
been recovered at all.
I said most of the costs, not all of them.
They all need to be recovered, or the company can't continue.

Mike
Gerardo Campos
2009-07-10 13:47:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Starcade
Post by Gerardo Campos
Post by Starcade
Post by Gerardo Campos
Right, if the show is not very popular, it makes sense to pay less
for the license.
If those providing the license allow that price.
If there is no agreement, then do not get the license
But the point I'm making is that there is a level, Gerardo, under
which the Japanese won't (or can't) go.
Exactly, there is nothing wrong if a license is not acquired, based on
your arguments, that anime needs US money to get produced: if they can
not sell the license for the show, the show is not produced, back to the
story boards, the studio did not wasted resources.
Post by Starcade
Post by Gerardo Campos
Post by Starcade
Here's where the fact that a number of series needed American money
to be completed comes in.   You seem to forget (probably
conveniently) that the licensing price is negotiated, but that the
original owners of the anime (the Japanese) have the final call.
 They could well hav
e
Post by Gerardo Campos
Post by Starcade
a number that, because of the need for American money to complete
the series, they CAN NOT go under.
I have not forgotten the license price, I used the license prices
that you provided in the math calculations, in a previous post.
Not the point I was making. The point I was making (which I do
believe you missed) was that the license price is not as malleable as
one might hope. This was the goal of Gen Fukunaga's taking over of
the North American Anime Industry strategy: To basically become the
sole source/licensor, and then HE would have the upper hand in
determining licensing values.
Of course, there are limits, and as I mentioned before, I am just and
only doing the math using your numbers, that's it.
Post by Starcade
This is never true until there is either only one source left of
Americanization, and even then it might not always be true.
Post by Gerardo Campos
Post by Starcade
Post by Gerardo Campos
Yes, that is my impression, but, I am just using the numbers
provided by Mike.
Which were numbers provided to me by the blog and the survey in
question -- you'd probably have to go back to animeanime now to get
them, and back about 18 months at that.
Ah, so the numbers come from someone that publishes a blog and from
some unknown people that answered a survey, I though those numbers
came from real industry reports.
It was an industry survey done for animeanime in Japan. About 18
months or so ago.
It was posted to the old BVUSA blog while it existed. I do believe I
posted links to it, but that part of the blog went away with BVUSA.
Post by Gerardo Campos
Post by Starcade
Post by Gerardo Campos
Yes, buying an anime DVD is expensive, but since must of the setup
costs have been recovered (studio, casting, equipment, press,
distribution channels, etc.), now should be cheaper to produce
them, and that reflects the price for the consumer.
So you are basically throwing in the towel, then, on new titles!
I was more talking about the general price recovery which new titles
would seem to imply.
And I am mentioning setup costs, you only pay for most of the equipment
once, of course, you need money to renovate equipment, but that is a very
low percentage. No additional costs to resarch for distribution channels,
reach buyers, create a brand.
Post by Starcade
Post by Gerardo Campos
The girl who leapt through time USD35.99 Dollars at Best Buy
Escaflowne (Jap, Eng dub/sub)  USD$39.99 Dollars at Best Buy
Saint Seiya (Jap, Spa dub/sub) MXN$5,880 Pesos at Mr. CD.
Guyver  (Jap, Eng dub/sub)     USD$63.00 Dollars ar Barnes and Nobl
e
And how many fansubs have you downloaded in same timeframe?
None.

You have stated before, that you no longer buy anime, because fansubbers
and downloaders removed from you the joy of watching anime.

So, how many fansubers and downloaders have you brought to justice to
restore your joy?
Post by Starcade
Post by Gerardo Campos
Post by Starcade
(Frankly, so is most of the industry, at this rate...)
And you assume something that I'm not able to -- that those costs
have been recovered at all.
I said most of the costs, not all of them.
They all need to be recovered, or the company can't continue.
All companies need to recover costs and importantly, meat a profit goal,
as there are still several companies around, the business is profitable.
--
Saludos
Gerardo Campos
Bobby Clark
2009-07-09 20:39:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gerardo Campos
Post by Bobby Clark
Post by Gerardo Campos
Let's do the math, just for fun :)
Post by Starcade
Let me start you with a set of numbers which was posted in Bandai
Visual USA's blog (which, like BVUSA, no longer exists -- and, of
course, this pro-thievery/fansub newsgroup will deny its existence)
in late-2007, sourced from an animeanime (JP industry) site survey
on why marketing to the United States market was useless.
OK
Post by Starcade
Cost of licensing one episode of anime: $30-33K
OK, lets use $32K for our calculations, so to license 13 episodes
will cost $416K
ADV has commented that they buy the rights to some series for as
little as $30K for the 24 episodes. So while one hot show might cost
30K an episode a ho hum show can be almost nothing. When ADV follows
the buy it all for a cash payment of $30K they making a killing even
with a low sales volume.
Right, if the show is not very popular, it makes sense to pay less for
the license.
The founder of ADV formed the company based on it and continues to make come
backs when others would go under using it. He is quiet fond of telling how
he made his start and formed ADV. I know some shows sell for much more, but
doing that for an un proven show is part of what got the industry in to the
hole it is in now. ADV is a good example of a company going back to its
roots to keep the doors open.
Post by Gerardo Campos
Post by Bobby Clark
Post by Gerardo Campos
Post by Starcade
The cost of dub/ADR work for one episode was estimated, in the
survey, at about half of what the Japanese require to actually
create it in the first place, which comes (at that time) to between
$45-85K an episode.
Rather expensive for 24 minutes, but, lets use $65K, so the dubbing
will cost $845K. (around $2700 per minute o_O)
I think this is very high. I think you can get that figure down to
less than $100K for a whole show. There are only a few people
involved wtih each episode. Voice acting is not typicaly a six figure
income. Many of the people who work for Funimation and ADV do other
things on the side. Even full time producers are not six figures in
this industry.
Yes, that is my impression, but, I am just using the numbers provided by
Mike.
I understand. One thing that Mike is not taking account of is how many
shows a producer will run at a time. A Funimation producer will run 3 to 10
projects at a time. They only need a few people to author DVDs for the
entire company. I bet if we look closely we will see the same sound and DVD
production people over and over on Funimation and ADV DVDs. Cost shrink
when the shop is run that way. Same thing for Right Stuff. They don't do
as much so a few people can do it all from the start to the finish.

Bobby
Post by Gerardo Campos
Post by Bobby Clark
Post by Gerardo Campos
Post by Starcade
Add about 10% for the strengthening of the dollar, and you come,
fairly quickly, to that a 13-episode anime in America is, at barest
minimum, a million-dollar operation.
Irrelevant, since the license was already paid above at a rate of 105
JPY/USD.
Post by Starcade
If you took the new box-set mentality, and gave an example price of
$40/13 episode box (knowing that the company gets about half of
that), it would take about 50K sales to recoup the million dollars I
speak of. How many titles in anime get those kind of sales?
You started with 2007 cost prices, and now you have 2009 sale prices.
In 2007 the box sets that I bought were around the USD$70-$80 range.
When we first started buying box sets in 2003 they were over $100 each
on sale. I think the popularity of anime has made a box set at $50.00
a winner for most of the US companies. The market sure has changed
that price point.
Yes, buying an anime DVD is expensive, but since must of the setup costs
have been recovered (studio, casting, equipment, press, distribution
channels, etc.), now should be cheaper to produce them, and that reflects
the price for the consumer.
<snip>
Post by Bobby Clark
With ADV's model 10,000 can make a handy profit.
Bobby
Yes, it is a profitable business.
--
Saludos
Gerardo Campos
Invid Fan
2009-07-09 23:33:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bobby Clark
Post by Gerardo Campos
Post by Bobby Clark
Post by Gerardo Campos
Let's do the math, just for fun :)
Post by Starcade
Let me start you with a set of numbers which was posted in Bandai
Visual USA's blog (which, like BVUSA, no longer exists -- and, of
course, this pro-thievery/fansub newsgroup will deny its existence)
in late-2007, sourced from an animeanime (JP industry) site survey
on why marketing to the United States market was useless.
OK
Post by Starcade
Cost of licensing one episode of anime: $30-33K
OK, lets use $32K for our calculations, so to license 13 episodes
will cost $416K
ADV has commented that they buy the rights to some series for as
little as $30K for the 24 episodes. So while one hot show might cost
30K an episode a ho hum show can be almost nothing. When ADV follows
the buy it all for a cash payment of $30K they making a killing even
with a low sales volume.
Right, if the show is not very popular, it makes sense to pay less for
the license.
The founder of ADV formed the company based on it and continues to make come
backs when others would go under using it. He is quiet fond of telling how
he made his start and formed ADV. I know some shows sell for much more, but
doing that for an un proven show is part of what got the industry in to the
hole it is in now. ADV is a good example of a company going back to its
roots to keep the doors open.
On the other hand, they started the overpaying for anime with NGE and
Blue Seed. ADV went on a buying spree overbidding for everything they
could even before shows aired, building up a supply on the theory costs
would rise in the future and they could live off what they already
owned. Who knows if costs WOULD have risen as fast as they did if ADV
had not signaled to producers that they previously had been
undercharging...
--
Chris Mack *quote under construction*
'Invid Fan'
Bobby Clark
2009-07-10 02:40:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Invid Fan
Post by Bobby Clark
Post by Gerardo Campos
Post by Bobby Clark
Post by Gerardo Campos
Let's do the math, just for fun :)
Post by Starcade
Let me start you with a set of numbers which was posted in Bandai
Visual USA's blog (which, like BVUSA, no longer exists -- and, of
course, this pro-thievery/fansub newsgroup will deny its existence)
in late-2007, sourced from an animeanime (JP industry) site survey
on why marketing to the United States market was useless.
OK
Post by Starcade
Cost of licensing one episode of anime: $30-33K
OK, lets use $32K for our calculations, so to license 13 episodes
will cost $416K
ADV has commented that they buy the rights to some series for as
little as $30K for the 24 episodes. So while one hot show might cost
30K an episode a ho hum show can be almost nothing. When ADV follows
the buy it all for a cash payment of $30K they making a killing even
with a low sales volume.
Right, if the show is not very popular, it makes sense to pay less for
the license.
The founder of ADV formed the company based on it and continues to make come
backs when others would go under using it. He is quiet fond of telling how
he made his start and formed ADV. I know some shows sell for much more, but
doing that for an un proven show is part of what got the industry in to the
hole it is in now. ADV is a good example of a company going back to its
roots to keep the doors open.
On the other hand, they started the overpaying for anime with NGE and
Blue Seed. ADV went on a buying spree overbidding for everything they
could even before shows aired, building up a supply on the theory costs
would rise in the future and they could live off what they already
owned. Who knows if costs WOULD have risen as fast as they did if ADV
had not signaled to producers that they previously had been
undercharging...
I would argue that they all went on a spending spree. Funimation was the
last one on a major spree. They spent much more than Tsubasa was worth for
the North American market. I think they have paid dearly for it. I still
wonder about how much all of the old Geneon properties are worth in
re-release as box sets. The companies that did not are still in good shape.
(i.e. VIZ, Right Stuff, Bandi USA.) In the manga world Tokyopop did it and
is in trouble. VIZ agian with the Shojo Beat Manga line has over taken the
shelves with good product. Yen press is another that seems to be making in
roads in the manga market in North America. They have done some manga that
I don't think will sale well in North America. Seven Seas has had to drop
several mangas and light novels because of the slow sales over the past 4
years. When they can't move 600 copies of each of the Yuri novels the
market is just not here.

Bobby
Post by Invid Fan
--
Chris Mack *quote under construction*
'Invid Fan'
Starcade
2009-07-10 06:51:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Invid Fan
On the other hand, they started the overpaying for anime with NGE and
Blue Seed. ADV went on a buying spree overbidding for everything they
could even before shows aired, building up a supply on the theory costs
would rise in the future and they could live off what they already
owned. Who knows if costs WOULD have risen as fast as they did if ADV
had not signaled to producers that they previously had been
undercharging...
Perhaps, but also understand the necessity, in their eyes for the
future of anime being a dedicated 24/7 anime network (small letters or
capitalized!) to showcase a whole ton of their products.

People keep pointing to this decision as overlicensing.

Overlicensing would then imply that far too many titles were being
made in Japan as well.

Mike
Starcade
2009-07-10 07:23:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bobby Clark
The founder of ADV formed the company based on it and continues to make come
backs when others would go under using it.  He is quiet fond of telling how
he made his start and formed ADV.  I know some shows sell for much more, but
doing that for an un proven show is part of what got the industry in to the
hole it is in now.  ADV is a good example of a company going back to its
roots to keep the doors open.
Frankly, he's a crook. So are his partners.

He's basically run roughshod over both the US and Japanese companies
to try to keep the doors open as a bunch of circling vultures, hoping
the other companies go under in the US and ADV/Sentai/whatever
fraudulent front they're using this week is all that's left.

Where's the Sojitz stake?

How'd he get the licenses back that he got back in Feb 2008?

Why would no TV network touch Gurren Lagann until it only took Bandai
ONE MONTH to retrieve it once it got the license?

And I could go on and on.
Post by Bobby Clark
I understand.  One thing that Mike is not taking account of is how many
shows a producer will run at a time.  A Funimation producer will run 3 to 10
projects at a time.  They only need a few people to author DVDs for the
entire company.  I bet if we look closely we will see the same sound and DVD
production people over and over on Funimation and ADV DVDs.  Cost shrink
when the shop is run that way.  Same thing for Right Stuff.  They don't do
as much so a few people can do it all from the start to the finish.
The survey put the numbers I gave you as the average dubbing cost, so
they almost certainly took that into their estimates before providing
the data.

Because each and every one of those projects will cost that amount of
money, otherwise the multitasking you speak of would've been taken
into account and reduced that price.

The problem that you don't understand is that those numbers already
take that cost reduction into account, Bobby.

Mike
Invid Fan
2009-07-09 23:32:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gerardo Campos
Post by Bobby Clark
Post by Gerardo Campos
Let's do the math, just for fun :)
Post by Starcade
Let me start you with a set of numbers which was posted in Bandai
Visual USA's blog (which, like BVUSA, no longer exists -- and, of
course, this pro-thievery/fansub newsgroup will deny its existence)
in late-2007, sourced from an animeanime (JP industry) site survey
on why marketing to the United States market was useless.
OK
Post by Starcade
Cost of licensing one episode of anime: $30-33K
OK, lets use $32K for our calculations, so to license 13 episodes
will cost $416K
ADV has commented that they buy the rights to some series for as
little as $30K for the 24 episodes. So while one hot show might cost
30K an episode a ho hum show can be almost nothing. When ADV follows
the buy it all for a cash payment of $30K they making a killing even
with a low sales volume.
Right, if the show is not very popular, it makes sense to pay less for
the license.
On the other hand, the prices are often set based on JAPANESE
popularity which might have little to do with the US market. VOTOMS
cost USMC quite a bit as I recall, as much as another show they got at
the same time that was considered much more marketable.
--
Chris Mack *quote under construction*
'Invid Fan'
Bobby Clark
2009-07-10 02:50:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Invid Fan
Post by Gerardo Campos
Post by Bobby Clark
Post by Gerardo Campos
Let's do the math, just for fun :)
Post by Starcade
Let me start you with a set of numbers which was posted in Bandai
Visual USA's blog (which, like BVUSA, no longer exists -- and, of
course, this pro-thievery/fansub newsgroup will deny its existence)
in late-2007, sourced from an animeanime (JP industry) site survey
on why marketing to the United States market was useless.
OK
Post by Starcade
Cost of licensing one episode of anime: $30-33K
OK, lets use $32K for our calculations, so to license 13 episodes
will cost $416K
ADV has commented that they buy the rights to some series for as
little as $30K for the 24 episodes. So while one hot show might cost
30K an episode a ho hum show can be almost nothing. When ADV follows
the buy it all for a cash payment of $30K they making a killing even
with a low sales volume.
Right, if the show is not very popular, it makes sense to pay less for
the license.
On the other hand, the prices are often set based on JAPANESE
popularity which might have little to do with the US market. VOTOMS
cost USMC quite a bit as I recall, as much as another show they got at
the same time that was considered much more marketable.
If the market is not here in North America to support it they should not buy
the property. These anime companys make assumptions that have turned out to
be wrong. Many of them have paid for it and rightfully so. In the case of
anime, North America is not Japan. If they are going to speculate on an
anime property they should be ready to loose all of the investment. VIZ,
Right Stuff are clearly not betting the company very much on things they
buy. The growth may be flat for them, but that is how some things work.
And some growth is much better than negative growth in any economy.

Bobby
Post by Invid Fan
--
Chris Mack *quote under construction*
'Invid Fan'
Starcade
2009-07-10 07:39:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bobby Clark
If the market is not here in North America to support it they should not buy
the property.  These anime companys make assumptions that have turned out to
be wrong.
Then they should stop all licensure immediately -- and several have!
Because, with the vast majority of anime being stolen off the
Internet, the market (except for top movies and maybe one or two
titles which haven't started yet) is not there for North America to
support.

This is why you have been hearing increasing calls to abandon the R1
market entirely and make anime for Japanese consumers and viewers
alone.
Post by Bobby Clark
 Many of them have paid for it and rightfully so.  In the case of
anime, North America is not Japan.  If they are going to speculate on an
anime property they should be ready to loose all of the investment.
But if that loss is due to abject criminal conduct by all or most of
the fans, the fans should be held accountable, on many levels, for
that.

And if the companies don't have the money to force that
accountability, they have no business continuing to make or create the
anime. (That's true for companies on both sides of the ocean.)
Post by Bobby Clark
 VIZ, Right Stuff are clearly not betting the company very much on things they
buy.  The growth may be flat for them, but that is how some things work.
And some growth is much better than negative growth in any economy.
Viz is basically Shonen Jump right now, as far as that goes. They
wouldn't be in the anime business at all if they could help it. But
Naruto and Bleach and Pokemon are kings for them -- and that's
basically their entire lineup minus one or two titles.

Right Stuff? See their wholesaling.

Mike
Starcade
2009-07-09 19:38:31 UTC
Permalink
Cost of licensing one episode of anime:  $30-33K
OK, lets use $32K for our calculations,  so to license 13 episodes will
cost $416K
Correct.
The cost of dub/ADR work for one episode was estimated, in the survey,
at about half of what the Japanese require to actually create it in
the first place, which comes (at that time) to between $45-85K an
episode.
Rather expensive for 24 minutes, but, lets use $65K, so the dubbing will
cost $845K.   (around $2700 per minute o_O)
Which, when added to the licensing costs, would put the average-cost
dubbed 13-episode license at over $1.25 million.
Add about 10% for the strengthening of the dollar, and you come,
fairly quickly, to that a 13-episode anime in America is, at barest
minimum, a million-dollar operation.
Irrelevant, since the license was already paid above at a rate of 105
JPY/USD.
I was more applying them to today's numbers (Bill N. was trying to put
together a "State of the Anime Industry" situation at a convention for
next year)...

But, let's say you do that: You're STILL looking at a million-dollar
operation between the dub cost and the license.
If you took the new box-set mentality, and gave an example price of
$40/13 episode box (knowing that the company gets about half of that),
it would take about 50K sales to recoup the million dollars I speak
of.  How many titles in anime get those kind of sales?
You started with 2007 cost prices, and now you have 2009 sale prices. In
2007 the box sets that I bought were around the USD$70-$80 range.
I said "if you took the new box-set mentality" -- if you applied 2007
prices (and the fact that DVD singles were still alive back then), the
numbers get far worse in an abject hurry!

Because they'd be going through that amount of sales with illegal
downloading every 8-9 weeks.
Also, you neglected the distribution costs, and the cost of the disk and
case, but lets absorb that cost in the ADR/Dub estimate, since I think it
is high.
Again, which only ADDS TO the cost, not takes away.

If you're trying to refute me, Gerardo, you're only making it worse
for yourself!

(Not saying you are, but I do begin to wonder if I've been dropped on
my head in Bizarro World...)
13 Episodes cost is $416K + $845K = $1,261K
Except for the fact that you have to double those numbers, because you
are assuming that every penny of that cost goes back to the company
(when only about half of it does).
So let's estimate, 10,000 sold each year, and adjusting the sale price
accordingly.
Total will be: $1,800,000 a 539K profit for one single title, with a modest
level of sales.
And there's where you were headed, and where your argument completely
falls apart.

I want you to tell me, honestly, if you believe for one iota of a
moment, that there are more than maybe 10 titles which could hold that
kind of sway in the US anime industry. (10K a year) I can think of
two or three.

(and the only reason I say 10, and not 5, is because of past titles
like Eva and the like...)

Those are Dragonball/Naruto/Bleach numbers, Mr. Campos.

People in the fansub debate have said that the industry should be
happy if a title gets TWO THOUSAND SALES, period.
Best Buy has over 1000 stores.
Fry's has 34 stores.
Media Play 72 (while it existed)
Barnes & Noble 800 stores
Borders 500
Indigo (not sure how many stores are in Canada)
Mr. CD 10 stores in Mexico
Mixup 66 stores in Mexico
So that's at least 2500 retailers that I am aware, that can very well sell
a very low number of 4 boxsets per year, which will be the 10,000 boxsets
required to meet above estimate, not counting Amazon, Mom & Pops, exports
to other countries, licenses to iTunes and DVD rentals and any other
music/movie retailer that I may have not visited. So the 10,000 sale figure
is easily achievable.
And why do you think stores are getting rid of their anime sections
(including many of the Best Buy locations, many Borders, etc.)?

In fact, the Barnes and Nobles I've been to have very little to no
anime at all...

The 10,000 sale figure could be _achievable_, but it's not being
achieved -- for one year, much less multiple years.

You, like most, are confusing the American DVD model with the anime
DVD model. They are not, and never will be, the same.

Mike
Gerardo Campos
2009-07-09 20:44:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Starcade
Cost of licensing one episode of anime:  $30-33K
OK, lets use $32K for our calculations,  so to license 13 episodes
will cost $416K
Correct.
The cost of dub/ADR work for one episode was estimated, in the
survey, at about half of what the Japanese require to actually
create it in the first place, which comes (at that time) to between
$45-85K an episode.
Rather expensive for 24 minutes, but, lets use $65K, so the dubbing
will cost $845K.   (around $2700 per minute o_O)
Which, when added to the licensing costs, would put the average-cost
dubbed 13-episode license at over $1.25 million.
Add about 10% for the strengthening of the dollar, and you come,
fairly quickly, to that a 13-episode anime in America is, at barest
minimum, a million-dollar operation.
Irrelevant, since the license was already paid above at a rate of 105
JPY/USD.
I was more applying them to today's numbers (Bill N. was trying to put
together a "State of the Anime Industry" situation at a convention for
next year)...
But, let's say you do that: You're STILL looking at a million-dollar
operation between the dub cost and the license.
If you took the new box-set mentality, and gave an example price of
$40/13 episode box (knowing that the company gets about half of
that), it would take about 50K sales to recoup the million dollars
I speak of.  How many titles in anime get those kind of sales?
You started with 2007 cost prices, and now you have 2009 sale prices.
In 2007 the box sets that I bought were around the USD$70-$80 range.
I said "if you took the new box-set mentality" -- if you applied 2007
prices (and the fact that DVD singles were still alive back then), the
numbers get far worse in an abject hurry!
If I remember correctly, DVD singles were around $20 to $25 in 2007, for
4 episodes, also, before that, there was little benefit on getting a box
set, compared to individual DVDs, though usually, the box set appeared
after all the singles were produced.
Post by Starcade
Because they'd be going through that amount of sales with illegal
downloading every 8-9 weeks.
Also, you neglected the distribution costs, and the cost of the disk
and case, but lets absorb that cost in the ADR/Dub estimate, since I
think it is high.
Again, which only ADDS TO the cost, not takes away.
I only indicated that you do not provided the numbers, and I assumed that
those expenses are included them as part of the costs of dubbing the
show, if you can provide them, I can adjust the math.
Post by Starcade
If you're trying to refute me, Gerardo, you're only making it worse
for yourself!
As I mentioned at the start of the post, I am doing the math for fun.
Post by Starcade
(Not saying you are, but I do begin to wonder if I've been dropped on
my head in Bizarro World...)
13 Episodes cost is $416K + $845K = $1,261K
be sold
Except for the fact that you have to double those numbers, because you
are assuming that every penny of that cost goes back to the company
(when only about half of it does).
Where do you get that the retailer keeps 50% of the sale price?, but OK,
that means each store listed below will need to sell 8 titles in a year,
so the producer is even. I find hard to achieve, since I am not including
stores that I do not know and online sales.
Post by Starcade
So let's estimate, 10,000 sold each year, and adjusting the sale
price accordingly.
Total will be: $1,800,000 a 539K profit for one single title, with a
modest level of sales.
And there's where you were headed, and where your argument completely
falls apart.
I want you to tell me, honestly, if you believe for one iota of a
moment, that there are more than maybe 10 titles which could hold that
kind of sway in the US anime industry. (10K a year) I can think of
two or three.
No, but also, I do not think that the license for an episode of any show
costs over $30K, and that the dubbing of any episode costs over $45K

Anime is regularly dubbed and broadcasted in several countries, do you
think a TV station can spend over $45K just to dub an episode for
broadcasting?

That means in countries like Italy, where they dub the anime shows to
Italian, they will need to charge $3750 US Dollars per 30 seconds
commercial, just to recover the dubbing cost of dubbing, not taking in
consideration the cost to buy the show episode license (which I do not
know if it is more expensive or cheaper than a DVD license), paying the
goverment the air broacasting license, TV station operation costs and
profit.
Post by Starcade
(and the only reason I say 10, and not 5, is because of past titles
like Eva and the like...)
Those are Dragonball/Naruto/Bleach numbers, Mr. Campos.
Care to provide the sales numbers of the successful titles?
Post by Starcade
People in the fansub debate have said that the industry should be
happy if a title gets TWO THOUSAND SALES, period.
You have expresed your dislike to the fansub group in this newsgroup, and
you are listening to them?
Post by Starcade
Best Buy has over 1000 stores.
Fry's has 34 stores.
Media Play 72 (while it existed)
Barnes & Noble 800 stores
Borders 500
Indigo (not sure how many stores are in Canada)
Mr. CD 10 stores in Mexico
Mixup 66 stores in Mexico
So that's at least 2500 retailers that I am aware, that can very well
sell a very low number of 4 boxsets per year, which will be the 10,000
boxsets required to meet above estimate, not counting Amazon, Mom &
Pops, exports to other countries, licenses to iTunes and DVD rentals
and any other music/movie retailer that I may have not visited. So
the 10,000 sale figure is easily achievable.
And why do you think stores are getting rid of their anime sections
(including many of the Best Buy locations, many Borders, etc.)?
They are shrinking their DVD and CD sections, is not limited to Anime.

Why do you think there are companies that are testing new businesses
models? Download by Internet (iTunes)? Rent and receive by mail the show
(Netflix)? Broadcasting over the Internet (Hulu)? As in the dot-com
era, some may fail (pet.com), others will survive (amazon.com). Time will
tell
Post by Starcade
In fact, the Barnes and Nobles I've been to have very little to no
anime at all...
The one that I have been, have several shelves with anime titles, but
there are many others that I am not aware of.
Post by Starcade
The 10,000 sale figure could be _achievable_, but it's not being
achieved -- for one year, much less multiple years.
You, like most, are confusing the American DVD model with the anime
DVD model. They are not, and never will be, the same.
Then you will need to enlighten us, I am just doing the math, using the
numbers that you provided, and calculated how many units need to be sold
to have a return of investment. I only added the number of stores where I
have bought my anime. If the numbers that you provided are not correct,
then you may need to provide numbers that apply to the "Anime sold in the
US DVD model".
--
Saludos
Gerardo Campos
Starcade
2009-07-09 21:09:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gerardo Campos
Post by Starcade
I said "if you took the new box-set mentality" -- if you applied 2007
prices (and the fact that DVD singles were still alive back then), the
numbers get far worse in an abject hurry!
If I remember correctly, DVD singles were around $20 to $25 in 2007, for
4 episodes, also, before that, there was little benefit on getting a box
set, compared to individual DVDs, though usually, the box set appeared
after all the singles were produced.
Post by Starcade
Because they'd be going through that amount of sales with illegal
downloading every 8-9 weeks.
Post by Gerardo Campos
Also, you neglected the distribution costs, and the cost of the disk
and case, but lets absorb that cost in the ADR/Dub estimate, since I
think it is high.
Again, which only ADDS TO the cost, not takes away.
I only indicated that you do not provided the numbers, and I assumed that
those expenses are included them as part of the costs of dubbing the
show, if you can provide them, I can adjust the math.
The point I am making, again, is that those costs (which were not in
the blog posts I saw the costs I provided you) only add to the
situation, not take it away.
Post by Gerardo Campos
Post by Starcade
If you're trying to refute me, Gerardo, you're only making it worse
for yourself!
As I mentioned at the start of the post, I am doing the math for fun.
I think you were trying to refute me, personally -- but, as I said...
Post by Gerardo Campos
Post by Starcade
(Not saying you are, but I do begin to wonder if I've been dropped on
my head in Bizarro World...)
Post by Gerardo Campos
13 Episodes cost is $416K + $845K = $1,261K
be sold
Except for the fact that you have to double those numbers, because you
are assuming that every penny of that cost goes back to the company
(when only about half of it does).
Where do you get that the retailer keeps 50% of the sale price?, but OK,
that means each store listed below will need to sell 8 titles in a year,
so the producer is even. I find hard to achieve, since I am not including
stores that I do not know and online sales.
IcV2 and some of it's information about wholesale costs vs. actual
retail prices. It's approximate, but it's there.

And I find it rather silly for you to think that every one of these
2500 stores would even carry anime -- and it has already been
demonstrated to you that many don't, while many more are eradicating
their anime because it is clearly unprofitable for the stores to have
so much dead weight on their shelves (which see the Best Buy
liquidations from earlier this year -- with more, probably, to come).
Post by Gerardo Campos
Post by Starcade
Post by Gerardo Campos
So let's estimate, 10,000 sold each year, and adjusting the sale
price accordingly.
And there's where your argument dies. You are assuming that _each and
every anime title_ will sell 10K _a year_ per 13 episodes.

Let me give you an idea of how ridiculous that is: How many anime
titles are there right now? I would think several hundred, if you
figure every 13 episodes to be a separate entity (for the purposes of
this discussion).
Post by Gerardo Campos
Post by Starcade
Post by Gerardo Campos
Total will be: $1,800,000 a 539K profit for one single title, with a
modest level of sales.
And that's where your argument dies -- how many titles are even
getting 10K for 13 episodes _overall_, much less per year?
Post by Gerardo Campos
Post by Starcade
And there's where you were headed, and where your argument completely
falls apart.
I want you to tell me, honestly, if you believe for one iota of a
moment, that there are more than maybe 10 titles which could hold that
kind of sway in the US anime industry.  (10K a year)  I can think of
two or three.
No, but also, I do not think that the license for an episode of any show
costs over $30K, and that the dubbing of any episode costs over $45K
So you believe the industry is lying and committing criminal and civil
fraud against its consumers.

As I have said to Brian, that's the only other alternative.

And, at that point, if you can prove that, you then have all the
justification to sue them out of business.
Post by Gerardo Campos
Anime is regularly dubbed and broadcasted in several countries, do you
think a TV station can spend over $45K just to dub an episode for
broadcasting?
You're seeing more and more of them having to in Japan (TV Asahi, for
example, for Shin-Chan, after they bought the studio and made them a
subsidiary of Asahi).
Post by Gerardo Campos
That means in countries like Italy, where they dub the anime shows to
Italian, they will need to charge $3750 US Dollars per 30 seconds
commercial, just to recover the dubbing cost of dubbing, not taking in
consideration the cost to buy the show episode license (which I do not
know if it is more expensive or cheaper than a DVD license), paying the
goverment the air broacasting license, TV station operation costs and
profit.
Which is why you are seeing less and less anime on television, at
least here in the United States -- the amount of money the TV networks
have to pay the licensors for that may not be able to be recovered
either (and for the same reason -- fansubbing!). And the problem is
that (with series like TTGL and Sgt. Frog) some anime needs to be put
on television to even justify the dub, because of the costs to do so
and the amount of dubbing needed.
Post by Gerardo Campos
Post by Starcade
(and the only reason I say 10, and not 5, is because of past titles
like Eva and the like...)
Those are Dragonball/Naruto/Bleach numbers, Mr. Campos.
Care to provide the sales numbers of the successful titles?
I provided about the best information I've had, with the amount of
money (and the percentage of all of Funimation's income) with respect
to one single title.
Post by Gerardo Campos
Post by Starcade
People in the fansub debate have said that the industry should be
happy if a title gets TWO THOUSAND SALES, period.
You have expresed your dislike to the fansub group in this newsgroup, and
you are listening to them?
I scout my enemy to refute them. Unlike most of this newsgroup (and
unlike what they believe I do), I actually do research outside of what
people would consider my "comfort zone".
Post by Gerardo Campos
Post by Starcade
Post by Gerardo Campos
Best Buy has over 1000 stores.
Fry's has 34 stores.
Media Play 72 (while it existed)
Barnes & Noble 800 stores
Borders 500
Indigo (not sure how many stores are in Canada)
Mr. CD 10 stores in Mexico
Mixup 66 stores in Mexico
So that's at least 2500 retailers that I am aware, that can very well
sell a very low number of 4 boxsets per year, which will be the 10,000
boxsets required to meet above estimate, not counting Amazon, Mom &
Pops, exports to other countries, licenses to iTunes and DVD rentals
and any other music/movie retailer that I may have not visited. So
the 10,000 sale figure is easily achievable.
And why do you think stores are getting rid of their anime sections
(including many of the Best Buy locations, many Borders, etc.)?
They are shrinking their DVD and CD sections, is not limited to Anime.
But it includes anime in that discussion.
Post by Gerardo Campos
Why do you think there are companies that are testing new businesses
models? Download by Internet (iTunes)? Rent and receive by mail the show
(Netflix)?  Broadcasting over the Internet (Hulu)?  As in the dot-com
era, some may fail (pet.com), others will survive (amazon.com). Time will
tell
Again, iTunes only works with enforcement...

Netflix is about the best way to actually do "previewing"...

Broadcast over the Net is actually failing, except for broadcast by
the networks themselves (which see the recent announcement before AX
from Joost (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2009-07-01/joost-
reorganizes-shifts-focus-from-own-ad-based-site)...
Post by Gerardo Campos
Post by Starcade
In fact, the Barnes and Nobles I've been to have very little to no
anime at all...
The one that I have been, have several shelves with anime titles, but
there are many others that I am not aware of.
That's news to me, and I've been in B&N's from San Francisco to LA...
Post by Gerardo Campos
Post by Starcade
The 10,000 sale figure could be _achievable_, but it's not being
achieved -- for one year, much less multiple years.
You, like most, are confusing the American DVD model with the anime
DVD model.  They are not, and never will be, the same.
Then you will need to enlighten us, I am just doing the math, using the
numbers that you provided, and calculated how many units need to be sold
to have a return of investment. I only added the number of stores where I
have bought my anime. If the numbers that you provided are not correct,
then you may need to provide numbers that apply to the "Anime sold in the
US DVD model".
You cannot assume that each and every store is going to be able to
sell that many anime -- you can only state that they _can_, but the
provided year-to-year sales numbers prove you wrong in that regard.

You also, then, claim that every title gets 10K sales a _year_??

I'd really like to know where you get that claim...

Mike
Post by Gerardo Campos
--
Saludos
Gerardo Campos
Bobby Clark
2009-07-09 21:26:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gerardo Campos
Post by Starcade
Cost of licensing one episode of anime: $30-33K
OK, lets use $32K for our calculations, so to license 13 episodes
will cost $416K
Correct.
The cost of dub/ADR work for one episode was estimated, in the
survey, at about half of what the Japanese require to actually
create it in the first place, which comes (at that time) to between
$45-85K an episode.
Rather expensive for 24 minutes, but, lets use $65K, so the dubbing
will cost $845K. (around $2700 per minute o_O)
Which, when added to the licensing costs, would put the average-cost
dubbed 13-episode license at over $1.25 million.
Add about 10% for the strengthening of the dollar, and you come,
fairly quickly, to that a 13-episode anime in America is, at barest
minimum, a million-dollar operation.
Irrelevant, since the license was already paid above at a rate of 105
JPY/USD.
I was more applying them to today's numbers (Bill N. was trying to put
together a "State of the Anime Industry" situation at a convention for
next year)...
But, let's say you do that: You're STILL looking at a million-dollar
operation between the dub cost and the license.
If you took the new box-set mentality, and gave an example price of
$40/13 episode box (knowing that the company gets about half of
that), it would take about 50K sales to recoup the million dollars
I speak of. How many titles in anime get those kind of sales?
You started with 2007 cost prices, and now you have 2009 sale prices.
In 2007 the box sets that I bought were around the USD$70-$80 range.
I said "if you took the new box-set mentality" -- if you applied 2007
prices (and the fact that DVD singles were still alive back then), the
numbers get far worse in an abject hurry!
If I remember correctly, DVD singles were around $20 to $25 in 2007, for
4 episodes, also, before that, there was little benefit on getting a box
set, compared to individual DVDs, though usually, the box set appeared
after all the singles were produced.
Post by Starcade
Because they'd be going through that amount of sales with illegal
downloading every 8-9 weeks.
Also, you neglected the distribution costs, and the cost of the disk
and case, but lets absorb that cost in the ADR/Dub estimate, since I
think it is high.
Again, which only ADDS TO the cost, not takes away.
I only indicated that you do not provided the numbers, and I assumed that
those expenses are included them as part of the costs of dubbing the
show, if you can provide them, I can adjust the math.
Post by Starcade
If you're trying to refute me, Gerardo, you're only making it worse
for yourself!
As I mentioned at the start of the post, I am doing the math for fun.
Post by Starcade
(Not saying you are, but I do begin to wonder if I've been dropped on
my head in Bizarro World...)
13 Episodes cost is $416K + $845K = $1,261K
be sold
Except for the fact that you have to double those numbers, because you
are assuming that every penny of that cost goes back to the company
(when only about half of it does).
Where do you get that the retailer keeps 50% of the sale price?, but OK,
that means each store listed below will need to sell 8 titles in a year,
so the producer is even. I find hard to achieve, since I am not including
stores that I do not know and online sales.
From what I see a Best Buy or Amazon may not make 10 to 20% on a sale.
Durring the Best Buy sale I had a manager tell me his computer said they
lost money at 50% of the posted price. Since that can be 20 to 40 % lower
than the sugested retail there must have been a kick back by Funimation for
the sale.

Bobby
Post by Gerardo Campos
Post by Starcade
So let's estimate, 10,000 sold each year, and adjusting the sale
price accordingly.
Total will be: $1,800,000 a 539K profit for one single title, with a
modest level of sales.
And there's where you were headed, and where your argument completely
falls apart.
I want you to tell me, honestly, if you believe for one iota of a
moment, that there are more than maybe 10 titles which could hold that
kind of sway in the US anime industry. (10K a year) I can think of
two or three.
No, but also, I do not think that the license for an episode of any show
costs over $30K, and that the dubbing of any episode costs over $45K
Anime is regularly dubbed and broadcasted in several countries, do you
think a TV station can spend over $45K just to dub an episode for
broadcasting?
That means in countries like Italy, where they dub the anime shows to
Italian, they will need to charge $3750 US Dollars per 30 seconds
commercial, just to recover the dubbing cost of dubbing, not taking in
consideration the cost to buy the show episode license (which I do not
know if it is more expensive or cheaper than a DVD license), paying the
goverment the air broacasting license, TV station operation costs and
profit.
Post by Starcade
(and the only reason I say 10, and not 5, is because of past titles
like Eva and the like...)
Those are Dragonball/Naruto/Bleach numbers, Mr. Campos.
Care to provide the sales numbers of the successful titles?
Post by Starcade
People in the fansub debate have said that the industry should be
happy if a title gets TWO THOUSAND SALES, period.
You have expresed your dislike to the fansub group in this newsgroup, and
you are listening to them?
Post by Starcade
Best Buy has over 1000 stores.
Fry's has 34 stores.
Media Play 72 (while it existed)
Barnes & Noble 800 stores
Borders 500
Indigo (not sure how many stores are in Canada)
Mr. CD 10 stores in Mexico
Mixup 66 stores in Mexico
So that's at least 2500 retailers that I am aware, that can very well
sell a very low number of 4 boxsets per year, which will be the 10,000
boxsets required to meet above estimate, not counting Amazon, Mom &
Pops, exports to other countries, licenses to iTunes and DVD rentals
and any other music/movie retailer that I may have not visited. So
the 10,000 sale figure is easily achievable.
And why do you think stores are getting rid of their anime sections
(including many of the Best Buy locations, many Borders, etc.)?
They are shrinking their DVD and CD sections, is not limited to Anime.
Why do you think there are companies that are testing new businesses
models? Download by Internet (iTunes)? Rent and receive by mail the show
(Netflix)? Broadcasting over the Internet (Hulu)? As in the dot-com
era, some may fail (pet.com), others will survive (amazon.com). Time will
tell
Post by Starcade
In fact, the Barnes and Nobles I've been to have very little to no
anime at all...
The one that I have been, have several shelves with anime titles, but
there are many others that I am not aware of.
Post by Starcade
The 10,000 sale figure could be _achievable_, but it's not being
achieved -- for one year, much less multiple years.
You, like most, are confusing the American DVD model with the anime
DVD model. They are not, and never will be, the same.
Then you will need to enlighten us, I am just doing the math, using the
numbers that you provided, and calculated how many units need to be sold
to have a return of investment. I only added the number of stores where I
have bought my anime. If the numbers that you provided are not correct,
then you may need to provide numbers that apply to the "Anime sold in the
US DVD model".
--
Saludos
Gerardo Campos
Rob Kelk
2009-07-09 23:37:59 UTC
Permalink
On 9 Jul 2009 14:39:52 GMT, Gerardo Campos <***@mx1.ibm.com> wrote:

<snip>
Post by Gerardo Campos
Best Buy has over 1000 stores.
Fry's has 34 stores.
Media Play 72 (while it existed)
Barnes & Noble 800 stores
Borders 500
Indigo (not sure how many stores are in Canada)
I have no idea how many stores Indigo / Chapters / World's Biggest
Bookstore / Coles / SmithBooks Canada / IndigoSpirit has - they don't
make it easy to get a list at more than the local level. Consider,
though, that they have six different chain names... and, before they
merged earlier this decade, Chapters and Indigo were the two largest
bookstore chains in Canada.

I suspect 1000 stores is a conservative estimate. However, they don't
all sell DVDs, let alone anime DVDs.
Post by Gerardo Campos
Mr. CD 10 stores in Mexico
Mixup 66 stores in Mexico
So that's at least 2500 retailers that I am aware, that can very well sell
a very low number of 4 boxsets per year, which will be the 10,000 boxsets
required to meet above estimate, not counting Amazon, Mom & Pops, exports
to other countries, licenses to iTunes and DVD rentals and any other
music/movie retailer that I may have not visited. So the 10,000 sale figure
is easily achievable.
--
Rob Kelk <http://robkelk.ottawa-anime.org/> e-mail: s/deadspam/gmail/
"I'm *not* a kid! Nyyyeaaah!" - Skuld (in "Oh My Goddess!" OAV #3)
"When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear
of childishness and the desire to be very grown-up." - C.S. Lewis
Captain Nerd
2009-07-08 02:02:51 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by Starcade
The only reason what I say doesn't make that much of a difference is
because you're a loony.

Cap.
--
Since 1989, recycling old jokes, cliches, and bad puns, one Usenet
post at a time!
Operation: Nerdwatch http://www.nerdwatch.com
Only email with "TO_CAP" somewhere in the subject has a chance of being read
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
2009-07-08 03:45:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Captain Nerd
In article
Post by Starcade
The only reason what I say doesn't make that much of a difference is
because you're a loony.
Well, there's loonies who can make a difference, but they have to be
people of importance.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Starcade
2009-07-09 06:37:26 UTC
Permalink
On Jul 7, 8:45 pm, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
Post by Captain Nerd
In article
Post by Starcade
The only reason what I say doesn't make that much of a difference is
   because you're a loony.
        Well, there's loonies who can make a difference, but they have to be
people of importance.
No, they simply have to be accepted by enough of the population at
large.

No other prerequisite is required.

Mike (which see Hilton, Paris -- Spears, Britney...)
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
2009-07-09 11:19:27 UTC
Permalink
On Jul 7, 8:45 pm, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Post by Captain Nerd
In article
Post by Starcade
The only reason what I say doesn't make that much of a difference is
because you're a loony.
Well, there's loonies who can make a difference, but they have to be
people of importance.
No, they simply have to be accepted by enough of the population at
large.
In other words, important in the simple sense.
No other prerequisite is required.
Mike (which see Hilton, Paris -- Spears, Britney...)
They have (or had) money and generally accepted good looks, and big,
BIG publicity machines. This makes them, in effect, important.

You lack all three of those characteristics.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Starcade
2009-07-09 19:21:16 UTC
Permalink
On Jul 9, 4:19 am, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
On Jul 7, 8:45 pm, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
Post by Captain Nerd
In article
Post by Starcade
The only reason what I say doesn't make that much of a difference is
   because you're a loony.
        Well, there's loonies who can make a difference, but they have to be
people of importance.
No, they simply have to be accepted by enough of the population at
large.
        In other words, important in the simple sense.
Emphasis on the word "simple"...
No other prerequisite is required.
Mike (which see Hilton, Paris -- Spears, Britney...)
        They have (or had) money and generally accepted good looks, and big,
BIG publicity machines. This makes them, in effect, important.
        You lack all three of those characteristics.
I always knew you to be a shallow bitch.

Glad to see you actively admitting it...

Good Lord, are you dumb...

You better eliminate me from the equation...

Mike
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
2009-07-09 19:26:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Starcade
You better eliminate me from the equation...
Only you can do that. Oh, wait. You already ARE out of any equation.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Starcade
2009-07-09 20:02:12 UTC
Permalink
On Jul 9, 12:26 pm, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
Post by Starcade
You better eliminate me from the equation...
        Only you can do that. Oh, wait. You already ARE out of any equation.
I'm here. Ergo, I'm not out of the equation.

Mike (There are only two ways to eliminate one perceived a troll:
Jail or physical elimination.)
Derek Janssen
2009-07-09 20:29:19 UTC
Permalink
On Jul 9, 12:26 pm, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Post by Starcade
You better eliminate me from the equation...
Only you can do that. Oh, wait. You already ARE out of any equation.
I'm here. Ergo, I'm not out of the equation.
Jail or physical elimination.)
(And he says he doesn't care who Tony Gaza was....SILLY BOY! :-P )

Derek Janssen (they all dream of immortality--Except for Starky, who
dreams of mortality, and won't get it either)
***@verizon.net
Starcade
2009-07-09 21:10:29 UTC
Permalink
On Jul 9, 12:26 pm, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
Post by Starcade
You better eliminate me from the equation...
        Only you can do that. Oh, wait. You already ARE out of any equation.
I'm here.  Ergo, I'm not out of the equation.
Jail or physical elimination.)
(And he says he doesn't care who Tony Gaza was....SILLY BOY!  :-P )
Derek Janssen (they all dream of immortality--Except for Starky, who
dreams of mortality, and won't get it either)
I dispute that statement.

Mike (My mortality will come a lot sooner than a lot of you realize.)
Derek Janssen
2009-07-09 23:41:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Starcade
Post by Derek Janssen
Post by Starcade
Jail or physical elimination.)
(And he says he doesn't care who Tony Gaza was....SILLY BOY! :-P )
(they all dream of immortality--Except for Starky, who
dreams of mortality, and won't get it either)
I dispute that statement.
(And, not like Curly, resembles that remark.)
Post by Starcade
Mike (My mortality will come a lot sooner than a lot of you realize.)
And then betcha we'll be sorry, yeah, betcha... :(

Derek Janssen (couldn't he just show us all, pack some peanut-butter
sandwiches and comic books in his wagon, and run away from home?)
***@verizon.net
The Wanderer
2009-07-09 21:02:11 UTC
Permalink
On Jul 9, 12:26 pm, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Post by Starcade
You better eliminate me from the equation...
Only you can do that. Oh, wait. You already ARE out of any
equation.
I'm here. Ergo, I'm not out of the equation.
This does not follow.
Jail or physical elimination.)
You forgot one: killfiles.
--
The Wanderer

Warning: Simply because I argue an issue does not mean I agree with any
side of it.

Secrecy is the beginning of tyranny.
Starcade
2009-07-10 07:17:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Wanderer
On Jul 9, 12:26 pm, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Post by Starcade
You better eliminate me from the equation...
Only you can do that. Oh, wait. You already ARE out of any
equation.
I'm here.  Ergo, I'm not out of the equation.
This does not follow.
I'm still here, dammit. Therefore, I'm not out of the anime equation.

I better be, if you want to be seen as "right".
Post by The Wanderer
Jail or physical elimination.)
You forgot one: killfiles.
That's the problem: You can't killfile someone completely out of
existence.

You can certainly wish, try, hope, etc.

Mike
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
2009-07-10 12:37:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Starcade
Post by The Wanderer
On Jul 9, 12:26 pm, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Post by Starcade
You better eliminate me from the equation...
Only you can do that. Oh, wait. You already ARE out of any
equation.
I'm here. Ergo, I'm not out of the equation.
This does not follow.
I'm still here, dammit. Therefore, I'm not out of the anime equation.
Yes, you are. Your presence is irrelevant. Only if you have any
INFLUENCE do you matter. You can of course think of yourself as being in
the equation, but you're in it as a constant of zero, which means you
can be treated as not being in it at all.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
2009-07-09 23:15:51 UTC
Permalink
On Jul 9, 12:26 pm, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Post by Starcade
You better eliminate me from the equation...
Only you can do that. Oh, wait. You already ARE out of any equation.
I'm here. Ergo, I'm not out of the equation.
Yes, you are. Except the equation of Starky=loon+mockery.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Brian Henderson
2009-07-10 06:13:34 UTC
Permalink
On Jul 9, 12:26 pm, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Post by Starcade
You better eliminate me from the equation...
Only you can do that. Oh, wait. You already ARE out of any equation.
I'm here. Ergo, I'm not out of the equation.
You're whining on a Usenet newsgroup, do us all a favor and let us know
when you move out of your mother's basement and actually make a damn bit
of difference to the actual anime market.

Until then, you're just an annoying fly that we're laughing at.
Antonio E. Gonzalez
2009-07-06 20:15:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Travers
Post by Nobody
Who is Kun Gao?? What company does he run??
CEO of Crunchyroll. A video-streaming website that was famous
(infamous?) for being a place where people uploaded fansubs, even for
series that had been licensed. They then started charging money for
high-speed access or uploading (which they kept for themselves).
Mike believes Crunchyroll made its money from piracy (which from a
legal point of view, Mike is right), and has no right being treated as
a legitimate company.
The past it the past, they're a legitimate company now; their
model, which itself is largely based on Hulu (which has recently been
determined to make *more* money per viewed episode than television
broadcasts), may well be the *salvation* of the anime industry, and
Darky can't stand it. The only part I don't get is whether Darky
hates the anime being saved part, or his being wrong part . . .



--

- ReFlex76
Ansgar -59cobalt- Wiechers
2009-07-06 21:09:58 UTC
Permalink
The only part I don't get is whether Darky hates the anime being saved
part, or his being wrong part . . .
The only part I don't get is: why would anyone actually care?

cu
59cobalt
--
"My surname is Li and my personal name is Kao, and there is a slight
flaw in my character."
--Li Kao (Barry Hughart: Bridge of Birds)
Starcade
2009-07-07 16:50:14 UTC
Permalink
   The past it the past, they're a legitimate company now; their
model, which itself is largely based on Hulu (which has recently been
determined to make *more* money per viewed episode than television
broadcasts), may well be the *salvation* of the anime industry, and
Darky can't stand it.  The only part I don't get is whether Darky
hates the anime being saved part, or his being wrong part . . .
That is such a disgusting thought (and so removed from the economic
realities of the costs of anime) that it shouldn't even merit
discussion.

Mike
Derek Janssen
2009-07-07 17:17:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Starcade
The only part I don't get is whether Darky hates
his being wrong part . . .
That is such a disgusting thought (and so removed from the economic
realities of the costs of anime) that it shouldn't even merit
discussion.
Yeah, well, does happen, y'know... ;)

Derek Janssen ("Thank you, Unfair Editing Guy!" - Jon Stewart, The Daily
Show)
***@verizon.net
Starcade
2009-07-08 09:28:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Starcade
 The only part I don't get is whether Darky hates
his being wrong part . . .
That is such a disgusting thought (and so removed from the economic
realities of the costs of anime) that it shouldn't even merit
discussion.
Yeah, well, does happen, y'know...  ;)
It _shouldn't_, but it probably will have discussion...

Mike
Derek Janssen
2009-07-08 15:42:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Starcade
Post by Derek Janssen
Post by Starcade
The only part I don't get is whether Darky hates
his being wrong part . . .
That is such a disgusting thought (and so removed from the economic
realities of the costs of anime) that it shouldn't even merit
discussion.
Yeah, well, does happen, y'know... ;)
It _shouldn't_, but it probably will have discussion...
What, your being wrong?--Oh, sure, comes up around here all the time.

Derek Janssen (remember, when they make fun of you, KEEP BLUFFING!--It's
sure to work!)
***@verizon.net
Starcade
2009-07-09 06:38:36 UTC
Permalink
I'm not wrong -- unless you want to basically say that the entire US
anime business model is a criminal and civil fraud.

Mike
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